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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
member
Username: Cadge
Post Number: 27
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:32 am: |       |
continuation:
Now I contend that Jesus was born "born again" so to speak, as he was of the nature of his fathers mind, programed in at the time of conception with Marys egg whose DNA carried mans fallen nature. Why?, because I can't see that Jesus had to put forth continual effort to keep his divinity under subjection in the same way we do with our lower nature and therefore equating that with being tempted in all points such as us.
Why?, because he depended on his Father for power. He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth these also doeth the Son likewise" John 5:19. And, "I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear I judgeand my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" John 5:30,31.
Jesus had no power of his own yet. It was after His ascension that he recieved his own power, and when he returned and came to the apostles he said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" Matt 28:18. That's when he was able to "breath on them and saith unto them," Recieve ye the Holy Ghost", at that time, because he couldn't of himself before. He didn't have the power till then. And he will retain this power and "Reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all" 1 Cor. 15: 25,28.
I try to keep an open mind, and for now that's the way I see it. Why? because it's the Word of God, not EGW or somebody else. And 1John: 26,27 says: "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. The annointing which you have recieved of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same annointing teacheth you of all things and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, you shall abide in him."
I do however like this statement from whomever it came from: "All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us."
Cadge |
bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen
Post Number: 2160
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:46 am: | |
David asks.....
"Why would it be so inconcievable to suggest that Jesus had these urges, yet kept them under subjection?"
David, physical needs and desires are not sin nor are they sinful. Jesus was hungary and needed food just like us. When the devil tempted Him, he did not suggest that Jesus go to the store and steal food. The devil suggested that Jesus should use His divine power and turn stones into bread.
Is this how the devil would tempt you or me if we were hungary? Not likely. We know, and he knows, we have no divine power to do such a thing. But he would suggest that we could go into a store and steal food to satisfy a legitimate need.
The temptation is not a sin, but how we deal with the need is if we go outside God's will to satisfy the need. Jesus must not use His divine power to satisfy His need for food. He is not tempted to steal. We are tempted to steal and not tempted to use our divine power which we do not have.
Thus we can say, "Jesus was tempted in all points (in principle)." But not in particular. Thus EGW has well said.....
-BC- 7BC
-TI- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7
-CN- HEB8
-CT- Hebrews
-PR- 01
-PG- 930
-TEXT-
It was a difficult task for the Prince of life to carry out the plan
which He had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing His divinity
with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was
familiar with absolute power. It was as difficult for Him to keep the level
of humanity as for men to rise above the low level of their depraved
natures, and be partakers of the divine nature."
Here we see the parallel and contrast that allows Jesus to remain sinless, while at the same time experiencing the force of temptation we all feel when we have needs. And in this context we can say,
-PC- ST
-PT- The Signs of the Times
-DT- 12-09-97
-AT- In Gethsemane
-PR- 04
-TEXT-
The human nature of Christ was like unto ours, and suffering was more
keenly felt by him; for his spiritual nature was free from every taint of
sin. Therefore his desire for the removal of suffering was stronger than
human beings can experience. How intense was the desire of the humanity of
Christ to escape the displeasure of an offended God, how his soul longed for
relief, is revealed in the words, "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away
from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."
The "sinful" nature of man is not his physical needs. But the spiritual corruption of the mind because we believe the lie of the devil who said, "Ye shall be God." True faith places us back into a creature/creator relationship where we acknowledge "God only is holy".
To say that Jesus "had" a sinful nature is equal to saying Jesus was in a state of unbelief and did not believe His Father's words. The enigma of the incarnation is that Jesus could be tempted to sin and yet not be tempted by sin. This could only be possible because Jesus was both God and man.
Part of the riddle is solved when we can see that Jesus "willingly" came and "willingly" stayed as a man. He was not required to do either. We have no such option. We did not "choose" to be born.
But if we want to live forever, we must choose to subject ourselves to God's will.
The final point is this, if you try to make a perfect parallel between our humanity and His, you will necessarily make a mistake in understanding His temptations and victory. But neither can you make a complete contrast without making a mistake on the otherside.
It is an enigma that can not be fully or completely explained nor solved. One more comment. To maintain a complete victory over sin is not so different from obtaining a victory over sin when a person has fallen. A fallen sinner is weakend but the principle is the same. The fact the Jesus never sinned and we have does not change the principle.
Sorensen |
Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
member
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 5120
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 8:49 pm: | |
It is an enigma that can not be fully or completely explained nor solved.
But many have attempted, unsucessfully. Since it is an admitted "dilemma" why not leave it there? The definition of a dilemma is something that cannot be answered, or solved. Fools rush in---. |
bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 9:26 pm: | |
It is an enigma that can not be fully or completely explained nor solved.
But many have attempted, unsucessfully. Since it is an admitted "dilemma" why not leave it there? The definition of a dilemma is something that cannot be answered, or solved. Fools rush in---.
Elaine, some points help us understand issues of the atonement and how it is applied to us and how it affects our relationship to God.
Here are some of the points.
1. Jesus is God.
2. Jesus is man.
3. Jesus came of His own free will from heaven.
4. Jesus could have gone home anytime He chose.
5. Jesus was tempted to use His divinity on His own volition.
6. Jesus did nothing apart from His Father's will and direction.
7.Jesus as God can not sin.
8. Jesus as man can sin.
9.Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
10. The Father raised Jesus from the dead.
11. Jesus died for our sins and paid our penalty.
12. Jesus is our example of how to live a Christain life.
13. Jesus is a brother and friend who gives advice.
14. Jesus is king and judge who demands accountability.
15. Jesus is the creator.
16. Jesus is the created.
Many more paradoxical statements could be made and each has some bearing on His incarnation. And while we can not comprehend all that each concept implies, yet each concept helps us understand God, ourselves, sin, atonement, and other massive implications of the incarnation.
So while it is a "dilemma", especially when we try to solve the paradox, it still is very useful in revealing God and His kingdom.
But to claim Jesus is sinful by nature like all fallen men is heresy and blasphemy. Neither the bible, Protestantism, nor EGW support such a crass and false conclusion.
What ever was sin in the context of the humanity that Jesus "took", was certainly purged in the incarnation itself. So that what He "took" is not what He "had".
-BC- DA
-TI- The Desire of Ages
-CN- 27
-CT- "Thou Canst Make Me Clean"
-PR- 01
-PG- 266
-TEXT-
The work of Christ in cleansing the leper from his terrible disease
is an illustration of His work in cleansing the soul from sin. The man
who came to Jesus was "full of leprosy." Its deadly poison permeated
his whole body. The disciples sought to prevent their Master from
touching him; for he who touched a leper became himself unclean. But
in laying His hand upon the leper, Jesus received no defilement. His
touch imparted life-giving power. The leprosy was cleansed. Thus it is
with the leprosy of sin,--deep-rooted, deadly, and impossible to be
cleansed by human power. "The whole head is sick, and the whole
heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no
soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores." Isa.
1:5, 6. But Jesus, coming to dwell in humanity, receives no pollution.
His presence has healing virtue for the sinner. Whoever will fall at His
feet, saying in faith, "Lord, if Thou wilt, Thou canst make me clean,"
shall hear the answer, "I will; be thou made clean." Matt. 8:2, 3, R. V.
Notice especially....."But Jesus, coming to dwell in humanity, receives no pollution."
His spiritual mind is free from every taint of sin.
-BC- 1MCP
-TI- Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 1
-CN- 21
-CT- Christ Deals With Minds
-PR- 03
-PG- 182
-TEXT-
<SB His Life Was Harmonious. <EB--In His life Jesus of
Nazareth differed from all other men. His entire life was
characterized by disinterested benevolence and the beauty of
holiness. In His bosom existed the purest love, free from
every taint of selfishness and sin. His life was perfectly
harmonious. He is the only true model of goodness and
perfection. From the beginning of His ministry men
<SI 183 <EI
began more clearly to comprehend the character of God."
Who is so ignorant as to claim he himself is "free from every taint of sin"? And yet some would try to claim Jesus is "just like us". But the paradox remains and for many, ignorance abounds. Especially some in the SDA church.
Sorensen
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
member
Username: Cadge
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 2:08 am: | |
So then Bill, by this concept, Jesus lived in side the womb of sinful Mary, yet he remained sinless. And, likewise, the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of us while we're yet sinners.?.?.? |
Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don
Post Number: 4309
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 5:22 am: | |
So then Bill, by this concept, Jesus lived in side the womb of sinful Mary, yet he remained sinless. And, likewise, the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of us while we're yet sinners.?.?.?
Mary was sinful because of her sins. How does a womb, or genetics, make a person a sinner? Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus had to be like us so the Holy Spirit can dwell in us?
The Holy Spirit entered the lives of many Old Testament people, such as the prophets, yet the Son of God had not yet taken on 'sinful' flesh.
There are some powerful Bible passages which assure us that Jesus was like us, yet without sin. It seems a good idea to hold strongly to the assertions of the Scriptures and not construct a model of thought unsupported by those assertions.
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
member
Username: Cadge
Post Number: 31
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 6:40 am: | |
I was speaking of inheirted sinful traits of character when I said inside the womb of Mary;sorry. And I could have sworn I'd adressed this to Bill. |
John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3681
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 8:40 am: | |
It is an enigma that can not be fully or completely explained nor solved.
and the penalty for our great.great.great.... grandparents being deceived is that all their kids are sinners?
why the confusion?
and what does it suggest?
and because we are born as sinners, by this definition which runs contrary to Hebrew law that only the guilty should be punished, not the parents, not the kids, is it fair and just that we be exterminated in the lake-o-fire if the instruction manuals represent an enigma that can not be fully or completely explained nor solved.??????
doncha wish it all had been better presented, in a clear, consistant manner, easily understood, and AGREED upon?
I WENT TO A BOOKSTORE AND ASKED THE SALESWOMAN,
'WHERE'S THE SELF-HELP SECTION?'? SHE SAID IT WOULD DEFEAT THE PURPOSE to tell me. |
David J Cadieux (Cadge)
member
Username: Cadge
Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 10:39 am: | |
John8,
Ha, ("doncha wish it all had been better presented, in a clear, consistant manner, easily understood, and AGREED upon?")funny you should say that.
I was thinking, after I had read Bill Sorenson's statements, that, if I, not being such a great biblical scholar as he, yet I can comprehend much.
I then came to wonder how could those not as bright as myself understand unto their own salvation. This question has come to my mind many times over the years. Things were much simpler for the thief on the cross I guess.
BTW, I read the things on Sargon and the other sites you suggested. It's puzzling to try to understand how Satan orchestrated those deceptions ahead of the biblical histories of the flood, Moses, etc.
But there is no doubt to me that spiritual entities exist. I am visited quite often by the presence when I read the bible and also in seasons of prayer.I take this presence that dwells in and about me as the "earnest", or taste of heaven that we will have for eternity.
I also had the same experience when I was studing the writings of a messianic group that lived in a commune, acts chap. 2 and chap. 4 situation, but the spirit wasn't as strong. I came to dicern later that the spirit I sensed there was not of God. I first was intrigued by them because they were Sabbath keepers and I'd about had it with the confusion of SDAism.
I had gone from mainstream who sell you the books, but don't follow them, to fundamental self supporting ones that are members of the "concison" so to speak. So concise of not so much as eating a peanut between meals, skippingmeal and wait for the next if you miss it by 15 min., two meals a day etc.
Try that after working construction all day. You don't even have enough calories in you to make enough heat in your body to sleep at night. For a single guy, I mean, Ha Ha.
And these people run around ratting on what they believe is anyone cheating on the councils of EGW. Tribe of Dan "concision" types. My brother visited a few times at both experiences and stated "You people may have the truth, but you sure don't have the love, and if you don't have the love, you don't have the truth". You'll know them by their fruits, not their doctrine.
Anyway, I enjoy reading your thoughts and presentations.
Cadge
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bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen
Post Number: 2165
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:03 pm: | |
Cadge asks......
"So then Bill, by this concept, Jesus lived in side the womb of sinful Mary, yet he remained sinless. And, likewise, the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of us while we're yet sinners.?.?.?"
Mary was truly "sinful" but her womb was not.
Start here, Cadge. Sin resides in the mind, not in the body. Only in the sense that the mind is in the body.
And secondly, sin has a two fold application and concept. It is a moral corruption of the mind and a legal seperation from God, as in "divorce".
Anyone in a state of legal seperation from God is a sinner, I don't care what their moral condition is. And on the other side of the coin, any one who is morally degenerate is a sinner, I don't care what their legal standing is.
Thus we discuss salvation in the context of title and fitness. Legal and moral. Jesus is both a doctor and a lawyer. He heals our moral sickness and re-unites us to God by our being "married" to Him. Our legal right to heaven is "Christ alone".
Our moral right to heaven is our fitness to be there. The first is justification and the second sanctification.
So, let's cut to the chase, while you can define these two aspects of redemption and explain their function, in the final analysis, you can not have one without the other. That is, you can not be fit for heaven without the title, and you can not have the title without a fitness.
Jesus is Lord and Savior and unless He is both, He is neither.
So you ask......
"the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of us while we're yet sinners.?.?.?"
If you mean while we are practicing known sin with no intention to repent, the answer is "no".
If you mean while we are in a growing state of being "born again", the answer is "yes".
In this life, if we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, we enter the "kingdom of grace" and are on probation to decide if we will stay there until the final judgment. At which time it will be decided if we are fit for heaven. If so, our sins will be blotted out and our names retained in the book of life and sealed their for eternity.
If not, our names are blotted out of the book of life and we are consigned to destruction with the wicked.
And let me add, any doctrine or interpretation of the bible that undermines this bible truth is false and antichrist.
Sorensen
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bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:09 pm: | |
You don't have to be "bright" to understand the bible. You do have to "listen" to God's word with a willing mind to know what He will communicate by His Spirit. |
David J Cadieux (Cadge)
member
Username: Cadge
Post Number: 33
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:59 pm: | |
Thanks Bill, that was very simply stated. Between your expose of the duality of Jesus's makeup in your "enigma" post and your concept of the person who enters the "kingdom of Grace" in the latter, I have a better understanding of the matters. I downloaded and also printed that too.
Cadge |
Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don
Post Number: 4311
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 4:03 pm: | |
And I could have sworn I'd adressed this to Bill.
Sorry, I will try to remember that you do not want to have a wider discussion with people like me. Unless you specifically state so. 
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John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3682
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 5:32 pm: | |
Things were much simpler for the thief on the cross I guess.
maybe not....since what Jesus told him is subject to interpretations which create considerable discussion, many divisions and sometimes intolorance bordering on competition often resulting in anger among his followers:
quoting Jesus:
"Verily, verily I say unto you this day thou shalt be with me in paradise".
where do you put the comma? it is unclear enuf to support several different doctrines:
"verily I say unto you this day..... I'm telling you today.....
thou shalt be with me in paradise, sometime later.
or,
"verily I say unto you,.....today, right now, soon, you and I are going to go to paradise.
and did that mean just they were going to die? or they were going to be rewarded immediately in the afterlife? that very day?
so I mournfully intone again...
doncha wish it all had been better presented, in a clear, consistant manner, easily understood, and AGREED upon?
BTW, I read the things on Sargon and the other sites you suggested. It's puzzling to try to understand how Satan orchestrated those deceptions ahead of the biblical histories of the flood, Moses, etc.
the puzzle disappears if you accept reasonable explanations that the myths were first told by people OTHER THAN the Hebrews, who learned of them later, probably while in captivity in Babylon, and they adopted and adapted the stories as their own.
no need for satan to disguise himself as a talking snake and deceive people....
I WENT TO A BOOKSTORE AND ASKED THE SALESWOMAN,
'WHERE'S THE SELF-HELP SECTION?'? SHE SAID IT WOULD DEFEAT THE PURPOSE to tell me. |
Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
member
Username: Elaine
Post Number: 5151
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 6:32 pm: | |
A lot of the stories in the Old Testament are in fact borrowed material. Particularly from the rich mythical heritage of the Sumerians, the inventors of writing. The story of Noah and the great flood, Cain and Abel, the gardens of Eden, creation of Eve from Adams rib, and numerous other myths are stories found recorded on Sumerian clay tablets dating 2-3000 years back, long before the earliest parts of the Old Testament were written down.
The version of the Old Testament as we know it (with its 39 texts) was first assembled in the 15. Century AD!! Up through history there have existed a number of different Christian Bibles. All the different Christian sects had their own compilation of religious texts. Most of our Old Testament is based on translated medieval manuscripts not older then the 9.th or 10.th century AD.
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