| Author | Message | ||
     bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 1603 Registered: 9-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hubb said..... "At the same time, we often have to deal with the sin in a sensible manner, even while still forgiving the sinner. Does that make sense? Not sure it does!" Probably as close as you can get to a viable explaination, Hubb. EGW said this..... BC- 4T -TI- Testimonies for the Church Volume Four -CN- 17 -CT- Jeremiah Reproves Israel -PR- 02 -PG- 166 -TEXT- The sin of Eli was in passing lightly over the iniquity of his sons, who were occupying sacred offices. The neglect of the father to reprove and restrain his sons brought upon Israel a fearful calamity. The sons of Eli were slain, Eli himself lost his life, the ark of God was taken from Israel, and thirty thousand of the people were slain. All this was because sin was lightly regarded and allowed to remain among them. What a lesson is this to men holding responsible positions in the church of God! It adjures them faithfully to remove the wrongs that dishonor the cause of truth." BC- COL -TI- Christ's Object Lessons -CN- 19 -CT- The Measure of Forgiveness -PR- 02 -PG- 248 -TEXT- But sin is not to be lightly regarded. The Lord has commanded us not to suffer wrong upon our brother. He says, "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him." Luke 17:3. Sin is to be called by its right name, and is to be plainly laid out before the wrongdoer." Not an easy application. Sorensen | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2107 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Hi Bill, I agree with those quotes and your comments. I've often thought about, say, a church treasurer who embezzles funds. Suppose we do forgive him. Do we then put him back in as church treasurer? No Way!! | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2108 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Maggie and Larry, I am getting boggled by your discussion. Maggie and I went through some of this with Phil Harker several years ago. I guess I am a "concrete" sort of person. (don't take that too far!) My approach would be to look at God as being "concrete" and practical too. Of course, God is a Spirit and looks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. BUT He manages His affairs in a concrete way. and the concrete (e.g. "real") universe He created is symbolic of who He is. In the afterlife, I would be bored to tears if I sat on a cloud all day long playing a harp. The acoustics in clouds are terrible! But if you talk about real food, building houses, agriculture, engineering, music and art -- Hold the door open! I'm coming in! | ||
| bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 1604 Registered: 9-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hubb said.... "Bill, Not too far away and not so long ago, Walter Rea applied for membership in our church. He was given two hours to speak before our church board, during which he continued to defend his book "The White Lie" and to call EGW a "marionette"." Look on the back of his book and you will see my brother's name. Sorensen | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 4450 Registered: 8-2004 Rating: N/A |
If telling the truth is considered a "sin" is that the "sin" that prevented Rea from being considered a potential member? Personally, I wouldn't want to be any part of such an organization that behaves in that manner. Was Folkenberg disfellowshipped? Yet look at the history of those prominent in the earlh Adventist church who were summarily "kicked out" becuase they spoke out against EGW. There were attempts even to expel Des Ford. Fortunately, the local church refused to consider it. When has the SDA church EVER APOLOGIZED for its shameful actions? Merikay Silver? Canright? Ballenger, and too many others to name. The church I formerly belonged to many years ago, disfellowshipped six members in a public vote following the 11:00 worship service, because these six had followed the former pastor to his new Sabbatarian church. No "sin" was ever given as a reason, but "apostasy"--meaning from the former church. That word, APOSTASY covers anything they wish. | ||
| John G. Mauro (Jackson) member Username: Jackson Post Number: 406 Registered: 3-2002 Rating: N/A |
Bob Lackey said, Also it is not true one has to join a certain church or denomination to be saved. Even Pope John Paul, 11 finally admitted that. Doesn't EGW say that God's true people are in all the denominations including the Roman Catholic Church? i think the following quote sums up who makes up God's church. God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. (UL 315.5} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12 "Can someone introduce me to JUST ONE SDA who is now sinless, perfect and blameless, separate from sinners just like Christ was when He was in the flesh? I don't want to meet an entire generation. I just want to meet ONE person who is sinless and perfect in this flesh we have. Just ONE. Can someone name just ONE?" Bob, as a professed Protestant shouldn't you be looking to the Bible to see if a doctrine is scriptural or not, rather than looking for proof before you believe. Your faith should be in the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines. Paul, under inspiration said : 2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me So, would you ask Paul to show you proof before you would believe? Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.John 4:48 If you don't believe Paul show me from scripture where he is in error here. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2110 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Elaine, Walter Rea got a settlement from the church enough to buy a farm in Patterson, CA. If you feel his book is the truth, then I guess you would think our church was on a witch hunt. If you had observed his obvious delight in causing the church trouble, the derogatory remarks about EGW in his book, his continuing to promote his book, and his meeting with SDAs to foster his feelings against the church -- I don't think you would be so quick to support him. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2111 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Bill, I don't own a copy of "The White Lie" I had to borrow one before we had that meeting. Didn't want to add to WR's profits ! | ||
| bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 1605 Registered: 9-2004 Rating: N/A |
Bill, I don't own a copy of "The White Lie" I had to borrow one before we had that meeting. Didn't want to add to WR's profits ! Hubb, someone gave me a copy. And like yourself, I would not buy one. It is pure trash with no objective content. People who hate EGW love it, though. I love this quote..... -BC- DA -TI- The Desire of Ages -CN- 67 -CT- Woes on the Pharisees -PR- 05 -PG- 619 -TEXT- Christ's indignation was directed against the hypocrisy, the gross sins, by which men were destroying their own souls, deceiving the people and dishonoring God. In the specious deceptive reasoning of the priests and rulers He discerned the working of satanic agencies. Keen and searching had been His denunciation of sin; but He spoke no words of retaliation. He had a holy wrath against the prince of darkness; but He manifested no irritated temper. So the Christian who lives in harmony with God, possessing the sweet attributes of love and mercy, will feel a righteous 620 indignation against sin; but he will not be roused by passion to revile those who revile him. Even in meeting those who are moved by a power from beneath to maintain falsehood, in Christ he will still preserve calmness and self-possession." BC- FLB -TI- The Faith I Live By -CN- 10 -CT- The Triumph of the Gospel -PR- 03 -PG- 343 -TEXT- With the ungodly there will be a deceptive harmony that but partially conceals a perpetual discord. In their opposition to the will and the truth of God they are united, while on every other point they are rent with hatred, emulation, jealousy, and deadly strife." A fearful reality in our church today. We are united until the real issues of life are discussed in the church. People set together and think they are united, but it is a superficial unity. A Story. Two guy go to a ball game who have never met until they are seated next to each other. They both cheer for the home team and high five every run scored. The home team wins, 10 to 3. They have had a few and agree to stop at a local bar and celebrate the victory. During the conversation, the issue of politics comes up. One is a democrate and the other republican. Soon the unity is challenged by more important life issues. Arguing turns to physical fighting and finally the democrate pulls a gun and shoots the republican. What was superficial unity at a ball game was no unity at all in the real issues of life. Church members hug and laugh and fellowship at a pot luck and think they have unity in the faith. NOT. Soon all will be challenged with a clear definitive explanation of truth. And many will say, "Hey, I never believed that and didn't know it was part of SDA church doctrine." Nobody tells them the truth of the bible nor our SDA message. Superficial preachers preach superficial sermons. Politics. Keep everyone happy. Don't rock the boat. "Lets' all get along, we are all going to heaven." NOT. Oh yes, Sabbath keepers, Sunday keepers, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics........etc. "Let's just get alone, we are all going to heaven." Only one small group won't "get along". They won't patronize and accomodate and play huggy, kissy and high five apostate religion. When Jesus comes, Sabbath keepers alone will go to heaven. No one else. The Sabbath is the sign of faith, grace, love and the gospel. Everyone else is worhipping Satan and his kingdom. It is a "get along" religion with tolerance for everyone except Sabbath keepers. Why is that? Because Sabbath keepers won't shut up and leave them alone. Sabbath keepers are continually calling for repentance for themselves and the world. Today, the antichrist is in the SDA church and this church will be formost in enforcing the mark of the beast. Because they have the spirit of the beast. Hey, Bill Sorensen has heard the dragon roar before, and it wasn't Rome. Sorensen | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 1745 Registered: 8-2004 Rating: N/A |
Are you serious in these statement Bill? Is what you are stating the results of truly believing the Traditional SDA beliefs. Is this what Hubb and Don and Jackson and Urike (if she is still reading this forum) believe. Has the Traditional SDA become even more distorted then I a severe critique of Traditional SDA's even thought? Or has Bill simply moved so far out on a limb that few traditionals will join him? New Protestants.com | ||
| bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 1606 Registered: 9-2004 Rating: N/A |
Are you serious in these statement Bill? Is what you are stating the results of truly believing the Traditional SDA beliefs. Absolutely, Ron. And I would not expect you to believe it since you deny the IJ and the basic SDA message. I know today there are some Christians who have not yet been confronted with our bible message and no doubt some who die before Jesus comes will be saved. As was Luther and many others who were not confronted with our last warning message. But no living soul will be saved when Jesus comes who is not keeping the bible Sabbath. This is what we were taught 60 years ago when I was a lad. I have never believed different even though our church has abandon the message. This is what Brinsmead believed and taught. And is why he was disfellowshiped and many others who supported him. Since then, the liberals have taken over and opted for a Dr. Ford spirituality. Much our present evangelism is a patronizing message where we tell people what wonderful Christians they are and don't they think it would be a nice idea to keep the Sabbath. Not as a moral imperative to be saved, no, no. They are already saved. But we have a better way to heaven. Not the only way, no, no. Just a better way. The fact is, no one is "saved" just because they have entered the kingdom of grace. They are "candidates" for heaven and the final judgment will determine if they will be forgiven based on their born again experience. And this includes keeping the law of God. Sanctification preceeds justification in the final judgment. For no one is pardoned unless they are "born again." I guess you never knew or heard the SDA message before.....eh Ron? Sorensen | ||
| Neal Walls (Nwalls) member Username: Nwalls Post Number: 1759 Registered: 2-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ron I have attended over 1000 church services and Sanctuary Seminar meetings at Wildwood. I also went to school there for 2 years. My brothers and a sister attended Stone Cave & Little Creek Academies in Tennessee. On the other end of the spectrum I have been to services at LLU and have an uncle who was the pastor at Yucaipa. Bill & Hubb seem to be Adventists. The real ones who believe fully in EG White and the Pioneer message as well as can be expected with the way it has been passed down. The things you call 'progressive' are a repudiation of all the early believers thought and taught. Your message is the distortion, not Bill's, IMO. (Message edited by nwalls on February 28, 2007) It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion... Sagan | ||
| Neal Walls (Nwalls) member Username: Nwalls Post Number: 1760 Registered: 2-2006 Rating: N/A |
On second thought, I think the church he pastored was Calimesa. It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion... Sagan | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 4456 Registered: 8-2004 Rating: N/A |
But no living soul will be saved when Jesus comes who is not keeping the bible Sabbath. And is anyone you know "keeping the Sabbath" as the Bible outlined? So only Sabbath-keeping Adventists and Jews will go to heaven? Small place, so maybe it WILL be only 144,000. Hubb, FYI, I read Rea's book and have heard him speak many times and talked with him personally. Yes, he is sarcastic, and abrasive, but how does his book (which he did on his own) differ from Fred Veltman's who was paid by the GC for FIVE YEARS to investigate only the Desire of Ages? And when did it ever see the light of day? Doesn't it concern you that your tithe money went to Veltman for five years of research and yet his report WAS NEVER PUBLISHED FOR THE CHURCH MEMBERS TO READ??? WHY? | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2115 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Elaine, I don't know anything about Veltman except the report you give above. I just wish I had more say in how my tithe money was spent. I have to take the attitude that God is in charge of the church, and that He will straighten things out that need to be straightened out. Meanwhile, I will pay my tithe. About the Sabbath: Only a holy person can keep the Sabbath holy. At the same time, keeping the Sabbath helps to make a person holy. Most Christians would be challenged to pray for more than five minutes. Yet Jesus prayed for hours at night. Most of our prayers tend to be requests of one type of another. Maybe we should spend more time in praise to God? Mueller, who supported orphanages in Britain, was a famous man of faith and prayer. He supported those orphanages entirely by prayer. His method was to study the Bible, meditate, until his meditation merged into prayer. What Bill was saying is that when Jesus Christ comes, those people who live to be translated must have a special experience that most do not have at this time. As Matthew 5:8 says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." How many are "pure in heart?" ------------------------------- Revelation 13 and 14 indicate that there is going to be one major issue that divides the world into two classes. There is controversy over what that issue is, but SDAs believe that the issue is over the Sabbath -- the Seal of God and the mark of the beast. Right now, everything is peaceful and quiet here. What would it be like if there were not enough: . . . gasoline . . . electricity . . . food . . . housing We might see conditions in society deteriorate pretty fast, even here in USA. And lots of other things would change too. Nuff on that. Don't make me depressed | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) Moderator Username: Hfsturges Post Number: 2116 Registered: 2-2002 Rating: N/A |
Bill, That dragon you heard roaring was just the rustling of the tares among the wheat. When the dragon roars, it is going to be a lot more serious than that. Meanwhile, we need to seek out and develop a fellowship that cannot be broken. The problems we are having now give us a little practice. But that fellowship may include some people that we don't agree with in everything. | ||
| bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 1607 Registered: 9-2004 Rating: N/A |
Elaine asks..... "And is anyone you know "keeping the Sabbath" as the Bible outlined?" While the "day" we keep is clearly defined in scripture and why we keep it, "how" we keep the Sabbath is always somewhat open-ended. We could not make enough laws to cover all possible situations in the human experience. The Jews tried it. Since the Sabbath is part of the moral law, it requires moral decisions. And moral decisions are based on fluctuating circumstances. Certain principles are clearly and easily defined for Sabbath observance but application is not always so easily discerned. Since the Sabbath is the essence of law and grace, both of these factors are always present in application. Especially in our relationship to God and also in our relationship to humanity. And as J.C. Ryle said, "Heaven is a never ending Sabbath." This is why Sabbath observance will divide the sheep and the goats in the judgment. Those who look for a "lock-up" static religion will never be satisfied with a dynamic on-going religion that creates both a sense of inadequate response but also a certain fear of presumption. The devil's religion eliminates any sense of presumption or fear and destroys a dynamic relationship with God who is always far above us and in some sense beyond our comprehension. So, while we trust in grace, both now and in eternity, which give us more than adequate assurance of God's love and acceptance, we must never use grace to destroy all fear of offending God by indifference, neglect, and/or deliberate rebellion. And this is the religion of modern man and even in much of Adventism. Such as "love God and do as you please". Or some spirit ethic in place of the ten commandments that has no definable content but simply man doing what he preceives is right by his own understanding. The law does not release us from moral judgment in obedience, but neither does moral judgment release us from law as an objective standard. Christanity is a fluctuating morality around an objective standard. The Sabbath is a perfect example of both. And it continues through all eternity. Thus, fear and assurance are always coupled together in our dynamic relationship to God. Presumption is the only sin that shuts people out of heaven. And presumption comes by way of legalism and/or antinomianism. While these two errors can be defined theologically, they are not so easily discerned experiencially in our own life or the life of others. But we can clearly state anyone who thinks they can merit and/or earn the favor of God is presumptious and anyone who thinks they can ignore the ten commandment law and opt for a spirit ethic is equally wrong. Neither of these groups will "keep" the bible Sabbath as it denies both errors. True Sabbath keeping is always seeking to know God's will and do it, while always seeking grace for mis-understanding and short comings in every aspect of life. Paul says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." No doubt even the sinless angels "come short" of the glory of God. And thus veil their faces and bow down and worship with fear in the presence of His majesty. But they don't attack God's government of law and grace as Lucifer does. Yes, "Heaven is a never ending Sabbath" even for the redeemed and the angels as well. Sorensen | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 1747 Registered: 8-2004 Rating: N/A |
Neal wrote: Your message is the distortion, not Bill's, IMO. It is only a distortion if you accept the traditional SDA view as the truth. The idea of progression is that of change we are not stuck in one place forever more. You could say that Christianity was a distortion of Judaism, a change is often thought of as a distortion of the status quo. Yet life is about change, kind of a paradox isn't it. Fundamentalists don't want change and progressives see change as a necessary process in the application of knowledge. Bill wrote: I guess you never knew or heard the SDA message before.....eh Ron? Which is very strange having grown up in the SDA church and attended both SDA elementary school and Academy. Probably the difference is our ages, I grew up in a church that was much different then the cultic SDA church of the 20's-50's. My generation would not have forced the withdrawal of the book Questions on Doctrines. Well I am glad I asked because I feel better now realizing that the Traditionalism you espouse is a dying philosophy within the SDA church. Bill if you would like to edit some of your above posts and present your ideas maybe without the local church info, I would love to post them on my blog and website. New Protestants.com |
