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Don Sands (Don)
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Post Number: 1223
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Harvey Kellogg

What is his story?
What can we learn from him?
He was an Adventist Thought Leader in the late 1800's and the early, early 1900's. What were his thoughts?
In those first years of the 1900's he and the Adventist Church parted ways. How did this happen? Could it have been avoided? What lessons are there for us in this controversy?

What happened to Kellogg after this conflict?

___________________________________

This thread continues and expands the discussion begun at:

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1780&post=59241#POST59241



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John Alfke (John8verse32)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if you don't mind laughing yourself silly, the best way to understand Kellogg is to find the movie,
The Road to Wellville.

and to share it with a Advent friend...
along with a bowl of sugar frosted flakes...
or an enemy with an enema bag handy.

if you can't find it, here are some memorable quotes from:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0111001/quotes



Memorable Quotes from
The Road to Wellville (1994)

Interviewer: Sir, how often should one evacuate one's bowels?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: One should never, ever, interrupt one's desire to defecate. I have inquired at the Bronx and London Zoos as to the daily bowel evacuations of primates. It is not once, twice, or three times, sir, but four. At the end of an average day, their cages are filled with a veritable mountain of natural health.

Interviewer: And, sex?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Sex is the sewer drain of a healthy body, sir! Any use of the sexual act other than procreation is a waste of vital energy! Wasted seeds are wasted lives!

Interviewer: Uh, eating meat?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: "He that killeth the ox is as if he slew a man." Each juicy morsel of meat is alive, and swarming with the same filth as found in the carcass of a dead rat. Meat eaters, sir, are drowning in a tide of gore. What is a sausage? A sausage is an indigestible balloon of decayed beef, riddled with tuberculosis. Eat and die! For I have seen many a repentant meat glutton his body full of uric acid and remorse, his soul adrift on the raft in the ocean of poisonous slime, sloshin' against the walls of the body's kitchen.

Interviewer: Smoking?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: The liver is the only thing standing between the smoker and death! Also certain other things have to be avoided... like, uh, feather beds, and romantic novels... and the, uh, touching of one's organs. Masturbation is the silent killer of the night! The vilest sin of self-pollution! It is the sin of Onan!

Interviewer: Uh, Dr. Kellogg, how did you come to invent the corn flake?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: The corn flake, sir, is just one of my 75 creations for heathy livin', among them peanut butter and the electric blanket.

Interviewer: And what about your imitators? There are 103 other corn flakes presently being manufactured here in Battle Creek!
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Sir, corn is the injuns gift to the new world, and the corn flake is my gift to the entire world.

Interviewer: And what do you think about your brother?
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: My brother, W.K. Kellogg, worked for me as a low-paid assistant for many years. Now he's off on his own and amassin' fortunes with my corn flake invention. Unfortunately, he has chosen the family name to promote it. But the whole world knows only one Kellogg: me, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg! Surgeon, inventor, author, and crusader for biological livin'! I do not seek monetary rewards, for I am called to a greater glory. Here at the Battle Creek Sanitarium, the spirits soar, the mind is educated, and the bowels - -the bowels are born again!

Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: An erection is a flagpole on your grave.

Charles Ossining: With friends like you, who needs enemas?

Virginia Cranehill: The fresh air, the exercise, and the pleasure of a leather saddle between one's thighs.
Eleanor Lightbody: Why, Virginia, what do you mean?
Virginia Cranehill: Bicycle smile, I believe they call it.

Endymion Hart-Jones: The enemas take some getting used to, but, in time, you'll learn to look forward to them like an old friend with a cold nose.

Ida Muntz: Do you masticate, Mr. Lightbody?

Eleanor Lightbody: I wanted to be more than a hole in the mattress that answers to a name.

William Lightbody: Oh, no, no, I can't eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt.
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody.

Waiter: What would you like for dinner?
William Lightbody: Toast.
Waiter: And how would you like that, sir?
William Lightbody: Toasted.

Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Build up your resolve, not your genitals!

Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: My own stools, Sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit.
[Poultney Dab collapses in the street in front of the San]
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Poult, I believe you've suffered a heart attack.
[checks his pulse]
Dr. John Harvey Kellogg: Worse, much worse, you're dead, sir. Could you have picked a better place to die, Poult? Instead of out here in the street in front of everybody? Some poster child for biological living you are!
[kicks him]


Goodloe Bender: Health! The 'open sesame' to the sucker's purse!

Virginia Cranehill: Marriage is just legalized prostitution, my dear.
The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually though Kellogg tried many different things he was a world renown surgeon. It was also Kellogg who introduced George Papanicolou at Kellogg's Third Race Conference. That was in the 1930's it took another 20-30 years but finally people realized that looking at cells could save peoples lives.
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This interview would be a good place to start:
"Interview between Elder G. W. Amadon, Elder A. C. Bourdeau, and Dr. John Harvey Kellogg Interview at Dr. J. H. Kellogg's House Battle Creek, Michigan October 7th, 1907 (J. T. Case present taking notes from 8:20 to 9:00 am, when Mr. Ashley arrived and continued reporting.)

http://www.ex-sda.com/john.htm


Relating to what the GC bulletins and the Living Temple the interview states:
The views I put into the book I gave right at the conference, and they were published in the Bulletin; and I preached around at camp meetings, and there had never been any dissent on the part of the leading brethren from anything I had taught. I had presented my views on the Living Temple at a meeting at the Sanitarium chapel. We had a meeting there on the question of healing the sick, and I presented my views with reference to the healing of the sick, and I presented the very views that I presented in Living Temple. Afterwards Sister White read the report of what I said there, and she said, "That is right." That was told me right here in the house by Sister Druillard, or Sister Maggie Hare, or Sister McEnterfer, and I think Sister White herself told me the views I presented there were right. I supposed she had reference to the views I presented with reference to healing the sick, and that was so interwoven with my views with reference to the universal presence of God and of his power working in the body that I did not see how one could be true without the other. It was all based on that one thing.

(Message edited by ron on August 11, 2006)
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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A Kellogg Reader



___________________________________

From the Pen of Kellogg

Plain facts for old and young : embracing the natural history and hygiene of organic life, 1877.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KelPlai.html

FIRST BOOK IN PHYSIOLOGY AND HYGIENE, 1888
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17367/17367-h/17367-h.htm

Autointoxication, or, Intestinal Toxemia, 1919
http://www.coastalfields.com/publications_autointoxication.html

The Natural Diet of Man, 1923
http://www.coastalfields.com/publications_naturaldietofman.html

The Insatiable Tobacco Cyclops
http://www.mtn.org/quack/amquacks/cyclops.htm

The Simple Life in a Nutshell
http://lifestylelaboratory.com/articles/simple-life-nutshell.html

From the Adventist Archives

The Gospel of Health archives
http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=46

General Conference Session Bulletins
http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=14&SortBy=1&ShowDateOrder=True

General Conference Committee minutes from 1903 to 1905
http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc_info.asp?DocID=5

___________________________________

Books About Kellogg

The Cornflake Crusade by Gerald Carson, 1957 online
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/lhbum:@field(DOCID+@lit(lhbum09631div16))

The Road to Wellville
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0140167188/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-6872609-9605443#reader-link

The Movie
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0800139062/ref=ase_themuseumofquest/103-6872609-9605443?s=video&v=glance&n=404272&tagActionCode=themuseumofquest

___________________________________

Essays about Dr. Kellogg

Time Magazine
The Two Kelloggs, January 18, 1926

http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,728915,00.html

The Historical Society of Battle Creek
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9840/kellogg.html

The International Vegetarian Union
http://www.ivu.org/history/adventists/kellogg.html

Kellogg Described

quote:

... His surgical skill was admired by the Doctors Mayo. A vegetarian, he advocated low calorie diets and developed peanut butter, granola, and toasted flakes. He warned that smoking caused lung cancer decades before this link was studied. Kellogg was an early advocate of exercise and "biologic living."


http://www.mtn.org/quack/amquacks/kellogg.htm

Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and Battle Creek Foods: Work with Soy
http://www.thesoydaily.com/SFC/adventist02.asp

Battle Creek and Health Reform
http://lifestylelaboratory.com/articles/legacy-health-reform.html

___________________________________

Material Available on Sites Opposing Adventism

Interview at Dr. J. H. Kellogg’s House. October 7, 1907
Between Geo. W. Amadon, Eld. A. C. Bourdeau, and Dr. J. H. Kellogg.

Kellogg arranged for a stenographer to be present at this interview
http://www.ellenwhite.org/kelloggfile.htm

Another source for that interview
http://www.ex-sda.com/john.htm

Pantheism and the "Alpha of Apostasy"
http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw67.htm

___________________________________

Material Available at Temcat, a Radically? Fundamentalist Adventist Site

Biography of John Harvey Kellogg
http://www.temcat.com/alpha-2.htm#-%20SECTION%20TWO%20-

http://www.temcat.com/alpha-3.htm#SECTION%202-B

The Kellogg File, 1907
http://www.temcat.com/alpha-4.htm#-%20SECTION%20THREE%20-

The Living Temple
http://www.temcat.com/alpha-5.htm#-%20SECTION%20FOUR%20-


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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kellogg - Some Observations

Kellogg wrote over 50 books.

He was a brilliant mind. The Interview mentioned in these recent posts was largely on his turf. It is easy for me to imagine Kellogg working circles around these two Adventist elders. Carson, in his Cornflake Crusade, describes some the strategies used by Kellogg when dealing with the church. Carson presents a rather even-handed approach; he seems to think both Kellogg and the Church were odd. Church administrators were no match for Kellogg.

An example of this:

quote:

K: Yes, sir. I have got one vote, only one.

I got a letter from a brother awhile ago, and he said, "The leading brethren in the Conference have stated that you own the Sanitarium, and we want to know the facts if you have gotten possession of it." Brother White who used to be here in town, came here, and he said to me in my office, "Doctor, I have a good deal of sympathy with you. But I think you have made some very serious mistakes." I said, "Be perfectly frank to tell me about them." "Well," he said, "don't you think it was a mistake when you allowed the deed of this institution to be put in your name?" I said, "How did you get that idea?" "The leading brethren told me so."

B: That it was put in your name?

K: Yes sir. I said, "I am not going to answer that question. You go to the register of deeds and find out in whose name it is. Do you suppose the Sanitarium could issue bonds on an institution when I had the deed?"


Dr. Kellogg was technically correct. He had not put the Sanitarium in his own name but he had made sure it was out of the Church's reach.

Regarding his "pantheistic" statements which offended the brethren, it seems that Kellogg was willing to withdraw those statements. The controversy at the turn of the century was not theological at its roots, it was political and economic.

Kellogg seems to have developed an empire of institutions stretching across the land and into foreign lands. I don't understand all the provisions he established, but it seems that he worked to keep his institutions out of Adventist Church control. And, as I have said earlier, he was a brilliant mind, an amazing stategist.


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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From the fundy SDA's who are seriously developmentally disabled.

As stated earlier, in that book you will find many very beautiful sentiments, and therein you will also find a number of Christian concepts. But Ellen White denounced that book as deadly. And the "Review" publishing house burned down after agreeing to print it for him anyway.
http://www.temcat.com/alpha-5.htm#-%20SECTION%20FOUR%20-

What a God, burn it down after the book is printed. God couldn't quite manage to burn it down when the printing started and destroy the printing set up. No God being so incompetent waited till the books were printed and then burned down the printing press. All the while the books for months and possibly years were held in the basement of some building.

Maybe this is why some believe God has to send hurricanes to New Orleans... Being not too good at destroying things he destroyed the whole city to get rid of those nudie bars. I guess that makes sense if you believe EGW who said the 1906 San Francisco earthquake was meant to close down the drinking establishments.

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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 5:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham-Jackson-Kellogg-Post and Granola


quote:

- Sylvester Graham develops Graham flour and Graham Crackers;

- later, Dr. James C. Jackson uses sheets of baked Graham flour, broken up, rebaked and broken up again to create "Granula".

- Then Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, a Seventh Day Adventist and director of their Battle Creek Sanitarium, develops a mix of baked and rebaked whole grains, and also calls it "Granula"; is sued by Dr. Jackson, renames it Granola, but fails to market it and it never becomes a success.

- Along comes Charles W. Post, a patient at the Battle Creek Sanitarium, leaves uncured, gets cured by a rival religious system follower (Christian Science), opens his own health retreat, and makes his own Granola recipe, but calls it Grape Nuts and makes it commercially successful.

- The Granola name is revived by the modern health food movement, it becomes a "hippie" health food in the 1960's and finally, today granola has gone mainstream.

- A similar cereal called "Muesli" was developed in the late 19th century by Dr. Bircher-Benner, a Swiss doctor and nutritionist. It is now imported into the U.S. under the "Muesli" name.

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artgranola.html


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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kellogg, Sex and Kids

It has been said that Kellogg was so against sex that he never had sex with his wife. I think the real truth, as always, is more complex. I do recall reading that he taught that sex should only be for procreation; To overindulge was to use up vital energy. Kellogg certainly had lots of energy. Hmmmm.

Kellogg loved children it seems. He raised over 40 orphans and adopted seven of them. One of these children, Alberto Gonzalo Garcia, grew up to be a highly respected citizen of Austin, Texas; the first Mexican-American to set up a medical practice. His story can be found at:

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/GG/fgayk.html


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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where was he born?

This brief exercise can be used to introduce the concept of historical criticism.

_________________________________

Tyrone, Michigan

The Battle Creek Historical Society
John Harvey Kellogg was born on February 26, 1852, in Tyrone, Michigan to John Preston Kellogg and Anne Jeanette Stanley. His family moved to the village of Battle Creek when he was four years old.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/oracle/9840/kellogg.html

The Biography Channel
Surgeon and food reformer, born in Tyrone Township, Michigan, USA, the brother of Will Kellogg.
http://www.biography.com/search/article.do?id=9362099

Encyclopedia Britannica

born Feb. 26, 1852, Tyrone, Mich., U.S.
died Dec. 14, 1943, Battle Creek, Mich.

American physician and health-food pioneer whose development of dry breakfast cereals was largely responsible for the creation of the flaked-cereal industry.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9045015

The Peerage
John Harvey Kellogg was born on 26 February 1852 in Tyrone, Michigan, U.S.A.. He was the son of John Preston Kellogg and Ann Janette Stanley. He married Ella Ervilla Eaton on 22 February 1879. He died on 14 December 1943 at age 91 in Battle Creek, Michigan, U.S.A..
http://www.thepeerage.com/p17989.htm

_________________________________

Tyrone, New York

Wikipedia
Dr. Kellogg was born in Tyrone, New York in 1852 to John Preston Kellogg (1807-?) and Ann Janette Stanley (1824-?). The family had moved to Battle Creek, Michigan by 1860 where his father set up a broom factory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg

Answers.com
Dr. Kellogg was born in Tyrone, New York in 1852 to John Preston Kellogg (1807-?) and Ann Janette Stanley (1824-?). The family had moved to Battle Creek, Michigan by 1860 where his father set up a broom factory.
http://www.answers.com/topic/john-harvey-kellogg

Experts.About.Com
Dr. Kellogg was born in Tyrone, New York in 1852 to John Preston Kellogg (1807-?) and Ann Janette Stanley (1824-?). The family had moved to Battle Creek, Michigan by 1860 where his father set up a broom factory.
http://experts.about.com/e/j/jo/John_Harvey_Kellogg.htm

Reference.com
Dr. Kellogg was born in Tyrone, New York in 1852 to John Preston Kellogg (1807-?) and Ann Janette Stanley (1824-?). The family had moved to Battle Creek, Michigan by 1860 where his father set up a broom factory.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg

_________________________________

After examining the sources of information, what are your conclusions? Explain your answer?





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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Harvey Kellogg Papers(Collection 6) - Andrews University

I find this information interesting because of how carefully worded it is. It seems to gingerly step its way through the controversy.

I have highlighted the segments of interest.


quote:

Biographical Information

John Harvey Kellogg (1852-1943) was one of sixteen children born to Seventh-day Adventist parents in the farming community of Tyrone Michigan. After completing high school in a single year, the prodigious student entered Bellevue Hospital and Medical College in 1872. He soon decided to pursue the field of medical education instead of medical practice, believing that medical education would more fully prepare him for a life of missionary work for the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Following his graduation from medical school in 1875, Kellogg returned to Battle Creek to assume control of the financially troubled Health Reform Sanitarium, for one year. He remained there until his death in 1943. The operators of the Sanitarium believed that a diet of meat substitutes derived from various grains and nuts offered their patients a better cure than did drugs.

Dr. Kellogg developed these substitutes and found a myriad of other uses for grains and nuts. Peanut butter, granola, and a process for flaking grains are inventions for which we remember him most.

Kellogg's association with Seventh-day Adventists comprises the bulk of the material in his private papers. Kellogg was himself a Seventh-day Adventist, and was instrumental in the establishment of what is now a world-wide system of Adventist health care.

In 1903, he published a book entitled The Living Temple, which the Adventist church found to be at odds with its doctrines. A split soon developed, pitting Kellogg and his supporters against the Adventist leadership and laity.

Kellogg succeeded in wresting control of the famous Battle Creek Sanitarium from the Church and placing it under a board controlled by himself.

Kellogg was one of the most forceful and effective leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. He was a good friend of James and Ellen White, though he later grew cool to her when his theology was called into question.


Scope

This collection consists of Dr. Kellogg's correspondence with Seventh-day Adventists.

Arrangement

Where possible the material has been kept in the arrangement conceived by the donors. See the inventory for more information on the arrangement.

Provenance

The original copies of Dr. Kellogg’s papers ended up at the University Archives and Historical Collections Department, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan.

The Andrews University photocopies were made with the cooperation of William H. Combs, Director of the Michigan State Historical Collections Department. Andrews University acquired these copies in 1978.

Use

All users of this collection will be required to complete the “Application to Use Unpublished Records,” and to observe the regulations specified in the “Patron Agreement” and in the “Researcher’s Code of Conduct.”

All records in this collection are open and available for research.

Citation for this collection:

Box ____, folder ____, John Harvey Kellogg Papers (collection 6), Adventist Heritage Center, James White Library, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan. A note must be included indicating that the original copies are in the Historical Collections Department, Michigan State University.

http://www.andrews.edu/library/car/registers/Kellogg,%20John%20Harvey.pdf






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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is a link to the source about why Kellogg was excommunicated. I see in the past we did discuss this issue here possibly more then on SDAnet.
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/1425.html#

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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron,

This quote comes from the link you provided:
__________________________________

quote:

Ron Corson said on Saturday, August 31, 2002: "When she came back she certainly took the reins and control of the church. Went about and ruined the reputations of men like J.H. Kellogg, A.T. Jones etc. Published lies about them, called them spiritualists and Pantheists."


It might be useful to specify each "lie" and examine it. Kellogg used technical definitions to claim the other lied, as I have pointed out in a previous post.

It seems that the SDA Church was right to be concerned about how Kellogg was influencing it. As I see it, Kellogg's concern was his institutions and he did not have to be theologically consistent.

As I examine those 1897 GC Session talks, I conclude that Kellogg was not thrilled about the forgiveness available in Jesus, he was thrilled about how we can all be divine like Jesus was.

__________________________________

quote:

By the time Ellen White returned from Australia, she was an old woman pushing 80. Moreover, she was not a GC officer, and had no power to do anything.


After looking over a few of the GC Committee Minutes of 1903, I conclude that Ellen White's influence was through her counsel, as it always has been. Consider this: (I will highlight the relevant sections)


quote:

TWENTY-FIRST MEETING
GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE
Battle Creek, Michigan
May 1, 1903, 3:00 P.M.

SANITARIUM BOND ISSUE

At this juncture Drs. Kellogg, Stewart, Thomason came in, and Dr. Kellogg suggested that a number of questions needed to be considered by members of the Medical Board and the General Conference Committee.

Sister White had stated that the Sanitarium should be helped, but that our people should not invest in the bonds. The publication of the talk concerning bonds in the Bulletin has made the matter known in the field. But people are effected differently. Some have withdrawn application for bonds, but others send in for them, saying they believe in them. The only embarrassment the Sanitarium felt was in respect of the course they should take regarding this application for bonds. Should they issue bonds to those calling for them, inasmuch as a recent Testimony has said there is unsafety in the bonds.

Elder Butler said that his understanding of what Sister White said was that our people having great work on their hands ought not to tie up their means in the bonds, so that it would not be available. He understood that the bonds would ordinarily tie up the investment for twenty years. We believe the end is at hand, and should keep this in mind in the use of means which are called for in aggressive work.

If all went well, the investment in bonds might be safe for the world. But if hard times come, or if Dr. Kellogg should pass away, what effect would it have on the situation? As for worldly people, they will do what they like, and invest as they like.

Dr. Kellogg stated that what they wanted was to know what attitude in view of the testimony lately received, should be taken in the matter of the bonds. While the money is not due for twenty years, the bonds are negotiable. Thus those investing in the bonds would have their money safe and could be approached for help for missions, etc., at any time, and the Sanitarium could easily pay the money redeeming the bonds. He felt that it was not necessary to forecast difficulty in case of his death, as the workers are developing to take the work. As to hard times, the Battle Creek Sanitarium has never been affected by such times. The testimony says there is unsafety and a snare in the bonds. If the bonds are unsafe, they are unsafe for anybody. If there is a snare in them, it is a snare for anybody.

G. I. Butler expressed it as his mind that inasmuch as Sister White has said she had nothing to say as to worldly investors, he did not think the Testimony was intended to have a bearing on that side. He also referred to the word "snare" as used in Matthew 24, as suggesting that the word might indicate a danger of joining in with the world in making investments that would prove a snare in view of the soon coming of the end.

The Chairman suggested the appointment of a committee to consider the matter. He understood that the idea as the council last November was that the bonds were not for our own people, but to be sold to the people of the world. He believed more was involved than the legal or commercial side of the matter. It was our attitude toward God and the truth and work, and he saw omens for good in the present situation.

Brother A. T. Jones stated that it was his understanding at the November Council that the bonds were to be sold generally to outside investors.

COMMITTEE TO ADVISE ON BONDS

VOTED, That a committee of three be selected who shall take the matter under advisement, and make report.

A. T. Jones, G. A. Irwin, W. T. Knox were named.

Meeting adjourned.

http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc_info.asp?DocID=5




Notice:

Kellogg came to the meeting because of Ellen White's counsel regarding the bonds. He seems quite neutral regarding her counsel, though near the end he shows his argumentative side.

Butler examines her counsel as one examining a legal document.

Daniells, the chairman, describes how he understands the counsel and goes on to say there are "omens for good" in the present situation. By this does he mean that Kellogg's request regarding how to manage Ellen White's counsel was an "omen for good"?

A.T. Jones agrees with Daniells on the matter.

Finally, like all "good" committees they strike a subcommittee to deal with the matter.

It is obvious to me that Ellen White had considerable influence on those proceedings and on the work of Kellogg.




(Message edited by Don on August 12, 2006)
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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kellogg and the Living Temple



quote:

FORTY-SECOND MEETING
GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE
Washington, D.C.
October 14, 1903, 9:00 A.M.

A. G. Daniells in the chair.

TESTIMONIES ON LIVING TEMPLE

After an earnest devotional season, the Chairman read from the Testimonies solemn warnings regarding the teachings of the book Living Temple, the dangers before us as a people, and the solemnity of the work of those who are set as watchmen.

After the reading, nearly all present spoke of personal thankfulness to God for the instruction given, and of humility of soul because of lack of power and consecration.

The entire morning was so devoted.

Adjourned to 2:30 P.M., even date.

A. G. DANIELLS, Chairman.
W. A. SPICER, Secretary.

__________________________________

FORTY-NINTH MEETING
GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE
Washington, D.C.
October 18, 1903, 9:00 A.M.

H. W. Cottrell in the chair.

... Dr. J. H. Kellogg, who was present, spoke of the Testimony regarding Living Temple, stating that he would revise the book, and that it was his desire to work in harmony with the General Conference...

http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc_info.asp?DocID=5






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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At Dan suggestion I checked a little on the person of George E. Fifield and interestingly this man and the Kellogg discussion have something in common. And that is Ellen White making testimonies using others writing and thoughts. Remember Kellogg saw some of this and said this stuff is not true yet here is her named signed to it. Well Ballenger writes:


DOES ELDER SPICER PLAY FAIR WITH YOUNG EDUCATORS?
The Gathering Call, January-February 1938, pp.16-23. By Edward S. Ballenger
http://www.truthorfables.com/Great_Controversy_Plagiarism.htm

Mrs. White Plagiarized Whole Articles

The first page article in every issue of the WATCHMAN, a weekly magazine published by the S. D. A. publishing house, at Nashville, Tenn. was given to Mrs. White's writings in 1906, excepting one issue which was devoted to reporting the proceedings of the Southern Union Conference. In the issue of May 1, is an article signed by Mrs. E. G. White, entitled RELIGIOUS LIBERTY. Not a word of this was written by Mrs. White. It was written wholly by Elder George E. Fifield, and published by him years before it appeared in the WATCHMAN. Nevertheless, it is inserted in this magazine as a revelation from God.

If this is not fraud, we will let our critics name it. Here is a whole article, not a word of which Mrs. White wrote; yet she published it as a direct revelation from God. We recognize that some people will say that Mrs. White was not responsible for this blunder. This, in a certain sense, may be true. If she delegated others to send out material over her name, and they selected anything that suited their fancy, and published it to the world as divine revelation, then she was responsible for entrusting such power or privilege to any of her helpers. If they were in the habit of practicing this deception, then how may we know that anything that is put in print over her name is authentic?

This is not the only case of its kind that has come to our attention. At the general conference of 1909, held at Washington, D.C., the last conference Mrs. White attended, Elder W. A. Colcord was handed a batch of Testimonies supposedly from Mrs. White, to read at a special session of the Religious Liberty Association. In reading it over, previous to the session, he discovered an article that was quite familiar to him, and behold, the whole article was a product of his own pen, which he had sent to Mrs. White two or three years before, yet it was assigned to him to read as a revelation from God. We would be pleased to have Elder W. A. Spicer offer a satisfactory explanation of this kind of plagiarism.

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Dan Brooks (Dan)
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Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 2:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron,

I saw that the other day. Not much on the net about Fifield.

(I posted a link that was 10 times longer than the
the one Don posted instead of this note, but then
thought better of it and will post this instead...

where you can post this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0800139062/ref=ase_themuseumofquest/002-3442307-2418424?redirect=true&s=video&v=glance&n=404272&tagActionCode=themuseumofquest

with this:
http://tinyurl.com/m6rft

by using this:
http://tinyurl.com/

I won't be doing much reading on this thread.
If it can't be stated simply, it's not understood.
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Don Sands (Don)
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Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 5:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In reading it over, previous to the session, he discovered an article that was quite familiar to him, and behold, the whole article was a product of his own pen, which he had sent to Mrs. White two or three years before, yet it was assigned to him to read as a revelation from God.

Where are the primary sources for this?

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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who knows I have not seen you asking for the primary sources on the other side. The problem is that in most of these cases the secrecy was on the part of the denomination. Kellogg asked for specifics problems and what needed revision. Denomination response was non specific and simply accusatory. He had a book written so he had specific writing they could address, they did not. The most complete response came some 25 years later with Spicer's book. Ballenger is asking in the magazine for Spicer to answer some questions. Can you find an answer to those questions?

The denomination as you know is very tight with documents. So since very few will ever have access we have to expect the denomination to answer the charges. Ignoring them while having documents to determine if the charges are true of not is unacceptable. Now if they don't have any documents to answer either way then they should say so. Again these things are simply ignored.
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