| Author | Message | ||
     Jodi Thiessen (Jodi) |
Ulrike, but NO OTHER BIBLE SCHOLAR outside of ADVENTISM can find that "understanding" in the Bible....Why not, I wonder...Why is it that it can only be seen through an EGW lens...Why has God hidden it from the entire rest of the Body of Christ and only revealed it in an extra-Biblical source available only through Adventist Book Stores? And only through a source which she herself said NEVER TO USE when studying with those outside of Adventism.... | ||
| Ulrike Unruh (Ulrike) |
As we reflect on Jodi's challenge, we need to ask a few more questions to get this issue into fuller focus and then seek the truth on the matter. Why was it that the JEWISH SCHOLARS, who knew their scriptures very well, WHY did they NOT have an "understanding" of Christ's mission on earth? Why? Despite the model of the earthly sanctuary service, despite their devotion to scripture, why did they NOT understand? And remember-- IT WAS THERE IN SCRIPTURE for Luke 24:27 says Jesus "beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." WHY DID THE LEADING SCHOLARS of His day NOT SEE IT? Since Christ's first advent and death on the Cross are so very, very important, and Israel as a nation (not as individuals) was rejected because they refused to acknowledge their Messiah, WHY was it not stated so clearly in the old testament that even a Jewish child could have recognized Jesus as the Messiah. Why did the olden day prophets not make a clear, pronounced declaration to remove all doubts from the minds of people about the purpose of Christ's first advent? Why was it so obscure that even the disciples, after walking with Christ for three and a half years, couldn't see what His real mission was as He hung on the cross? Why???? Because people see what they want to see. Israel wanted only the glory and prestige of a Messiah King, they didn't want Someone asking them to surrender their hearts and wills to Him. They didn't want to give up their greedy ambitions, they didn't want to part with sin. Could the world today be in the same position? The sanctuary message brings with it the message that we must surrender our lives to Christ and part with our pet sins. That is not a popular message. The sanctuary message shows that we are accountable for our actions, and that is not a popular message. We would much rather just leave it all up to Christ, while we go our own self willed way, walking apart from Him and doing our own thing. Popular Understanding of Salvation, not is not a Safe Guide As we study the outworkings of Christ's ministry in the Bible, a very disturbing picture arises. Somehow, the message of Christ's ministry is always distorted. 1. The ancient Jews were to look to the cerimonies which were shadows to help them look forward to the coming "Lamb of God" which takes away the sins of the world. But instead of looking forward to Christ, they looked to the sacrifices as an end in themselves to the extent that they rejected their Savior. When the Messiah came, they wanted no atoner for sins, they wanted a conquering king! 2. When Jesus returned to heaven to begin the daily continual TAMID in the sanctuary in heaven, the Christian church pulled people's eyes away from this ministry and focused them on an earthly counterfeit priestly system with it's penance, confessionals, mass, and eucharist sacrifice. Why was just the "daily", the TAMID, obscured in Daniel 8, by the papal horn? Why just the "daily" and not the yearly? Because the yearly was the day of atonement, the cleansing of the sanctuary, and it was not yet in operation before 1844. During the reformation the TAMID was again proclaimed. 3. But as Christ moved into His work of cleansing in the sanctuary, again the Christian world refused to follow. | ||
| Ulrike Unruh (Ulrike) |
Again,-- the two phase work of Christ is Biblical and can be explained totally without EGW. My research on the Sanctuary Daniel and the Sanctuary The Lord roused the world with the 1844 message-- That message was FAR BIGGER then just Millar in eastern U.S.A. It was a call to the churches to study and awake to Christ's "judgment" ministry. But -- most "adventists of 1844" didn't move on, they moved back. | ||
| Albert LeeSchulz (Alschulz) |
I have a problem with what you are saying and what the bible says.Romans 5:11 states that we have already recieved the ATONEMENT.That was back in Paul's day. The word atonement and reconciliation are the same word in both the old,and new testament. If Paul said he had it then and Jesus hadnt gone into the most holy place yet, how could that be? Heb. says not with the blood of bulls and goats but with his own blood he obtained eternal redemption for us. That could not have been done in the first apartment. In Lev16:2 Moses is told to tell Aaron not to come into the holy place at just any time or he would die,and he was talking about the most holy place before the ark of the covenant. The holy place was called the tent of meeting. If who ever wrote Heb. meant the holy place he schuld have reffered to it by that name .. | ||
| Jodi Thiessen (Jodi) |
2. When Jesus returned to heaven to begin the daily continual TAMID in the sanctuary in heaven, the Christian church pulled people's eyes away from this ministry and focused them on an earthly counterfeit priestly system with it's penance, confessionals, mass, and eucharist sacrifice. Why was just the "daily", the TAMID, obscured in Daniel 8, by the papal horn? Why just the "daily" and not the yearly? Because the yearly was the day of atonement, the cleansing of the sanctuary, and it was not yet in operation before 1844. That all sounds well and good unless you try to understand that the horn IS the papacy, and then that an evening and a morning equals a year and then that this time period is 2300 YEARS and then that the PAPACY has been trampling on the sanctuary for 2300 years....and then the math gets REALLY FUZZY....since the Catholic church has not yet been in existance for that long. And of course you have to start with the fact that Jesus went into heaven into a DEFILED sanctuary and left it DEFILED for over 1800 years and that His "daily work in the heavenly sanctuary" was GIVEN OVER TO THE HORN during all this time (even though it doesn't add up to 2300 years... Can you see why ONLY ADVENTISTS can see this? It sounded just fine to me, too, until I tried to piece it all together....there is NO WAY to do that and line up scripture with the Adventist "doctrine"...you just have to be like Cliffy G. and keep telling yourself it is so until you believe it! | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Robert Dale Lackey said on Tuesday, February 26, 2002: "A current Adventist told me recently that is seems the term Investigative Judgment is no longer used by many SDA theologians today. It has been replaced with the Pre-Advent Judgement. And it's more about vindicating God to a doubting universe than Christians being judged for salvation and final atonement by their works and obedience." This is very true. This dishonest revision of theology was the evil result of Glacier view. Not only does this new position violate what the later Battle Creek SDA's taught about the IJ and the Gospel, it also violates the truth about what Dr. Ford was saying about the Gospel. Therefore the present, post Glacier View position is not satisfactory to either side of the debate. It is nothing more than a forced political solution to an embarrassing theological problem. Don't misunderstand. It was a brilliant maneuver worthy of Caiaphas himself. However, it is all a fraud, as this new position does not reflect historic Adventism, or Battle Creek Adventism, or anything the apostles ever taught. The hierarchy has been caught "red handed" trying to manipulate theology and promote false doctrine. Although this modern hybrid Pillar of the IJ, now called the PAJ, seems to be an improvement over the old legalism, it is all a theological and historical fiction nonetheless. This new PAJ is a false doctrine that has prolonged the debate about the Pillars and demonstrates how dishonest, manipulative, and persuasive, the hierarchy can be. This PAJ is a "lukewarm" doctrine that has put the church to sleep so that the Three Angels Messages could be dismantled by an evil and unbiblical hierarchy. No wonder heaven is commanding the last church to Repent, accept the Gospel, and wake up! Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE TO THIS MAJIC SHOW; IT GETS WORSE. Now that the leaders have exiled the Gospel and rearranged the Three Angels Messages to suit their needs, they have a final trick. What is it? To make the Three Angels Messages fade into the background of history and disappear completely. These Three Messages will now be replaced with the modern, "lukewarm" sounding messages of: "Quality of Life, Unity, and Growth." Behold! The modern eschatology of the apostate Remnant! Forget about the historic Messages and the true Pillars. Forget about the Mission to become the Remnant Church in Rev 18 and forget about the Message to warn the world of the soon coming Day of Judgment and the end of civilization. No, no, no. Away with all that old fashioned stuff. We have a new modern strategy. A "New Strategic Course." Listen: "The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, in response to the mission of Christ, is placing emphasis on three strategic issues: Quality of Life, Unity, and Growth. It is our deep desire that in the formation of a community of faith, each person will experience unconditional commitment to Christ. This commitment results in joyful and loving personal experience, active participation in the life of the church, and compassionate service to the wider community in the world." Here are the new Three Angels Messages for the 21st century! Here is the Omega! The TSDA's thought Dr. Ford was from the devil. They thought that he was trying to destroy the Three Angels messages. Nevertheless, the opposite was true. Dr. Ford stood firm for the Gospel, which is the first Pillar within the first Message. In addition, he refused to allow the Second Pillar, which is the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment, to be replaced with the fraudulent IJ. He stood for truth when few did. So the leaders branded him a heretic, exiled him, and then went about to systematically rearrange the Pillars and turn the Advent Movement away from its eschatological destiny and into a private and corrupt club for the priestly elite. The hierarchy is the Omega. They are the source of evil and deceit. They are the ones who have done these things. The spirit of the beast has entered this paradigm and few were even aware. Listen to the new orders from headquarters about how the church is being steered into a "new direction." Read the following Words that were no doubt formed first in the brilliant mind of Satan. "This new direction for the Seventh-day Adventist Church is much more than just an administrative roadmap. Rather, it affirms the vital role of every church member in defining the church’s identity and participating in its mission....There is plenty of room for all of us to find an expression of our personal contribution to the quality of life, unity and growth of the church. We can do this in many and varied ways, yet moving on with our mission in the same direction." HERE IS THE OMEGA. HERE IS WHERE THE ALPHA OF KELLOGG AND BALLENGER WERE LEADING TO ALL THE TIME. Everything is the opposite of what it seemed. The Advent Movement had been betrayed and deceived from within. The leaders have exiled the Gospel, rearranged the Pillars and now, in front of our very eyes, both right wing and left, pro IJ and no IJ, they will dismantle this great historic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages and replace it with a false version that reflects the very mind of Satan himself. The enormity of what has happened is almost unbelievable. Who would have thought that Omega could be found on the Internet? Here it is: read it and weep. http://beingadventist.org/ First the Pillar of the HC is changed into the IJ, then the IJ is twisted into the PAJ, and now the entire paradigm of the Three Angels will become transformed into "Growth, Quality of Life, and Unity." Rev. 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; Wake up church! Our leaders have betrayed us! | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Bob said: "Ulrike, Tom and Jodi. Doesn't it seem the above rendering of the IJ kinda splits things down the middle so people who lean more toward the traditional (Ulrike) view and those who lean more toward the Ford or evangelical view (Tom) can both feel comfortable with the doctrine?" That is exactly the intention of this dishonest compromise. It was a doctrine crafted to keep the hierarchy in control of the church in spite of the civil war between the two factions. This new Pillar was designed to make people forget about Glacier View and forget about the whole debate. It was meant to appeal to the majority of the membership and make them think that the issues had been fairly and faithfully resolved when nothing could be further from the truth. So you are correct to perceive that "both sides have a watered down presentation of it." However, as we said before, this whole fraud is still morphing into something else. The hierarchy knew that they had to keep the magic show alive or the illusion will become lost. The fact that RF was removed for corruption no doubt slowed this evil juggernaut, but not for long. Nevertheless, largely, this trick about the PAJ has worked well. Ulrike is a perfect example: She thinks that if she puts Jesus into the IJ doctrine then everything will be wonderful. Listen to a comment from her Online shrine to the IJ: "Don't they realize that it is the sanctuary that takes all the different aspects of salvation and blends them together in a harmonious whole, with everything centered on Christ?" (Journey through the Sanctuary.) Who "blended" this doctrine and when? Who has the authority to make up such a theological and historical concoction? The TSDA's have been tricked by the hierarchy just as badly as the evangelicals have. Both sides have been denied their doctrines and both sides have been told to bow low to the authority and control of the corrupt and evil SDA hierarchy. Truth is now whatever the hierarchy declares it to be. If you don't like it, leave. However, this Pre Advent Judgment is NOT the original Battle Creek version of the Investigate Judgment. Uriah Smith NEVER "blended" Jesus into this doctrine whatsoever. The real Battle Creek version was all about our characters (not God's) being examined (investigated) to see if we were good enough to be saved. There was NOTHING about Jesus Righteousness in this historic doctrine and NOTHING about God being on trial. This PAJ is a new and modern "blend" of an old legalistic doctrine that has now been combined with Dr. Fords Gospel Reform to make the fraudulant IJ Pillar look respectable. It is a slick blend of the false and the true, so cleverly disguised that few can see the danger. This PAJ is a deceptive and poisonous doctrine that was devised by the Devil himself in order to confuse the Remnant at the end of time. So far, mission accomplished! The Ulrikes of the church fell for this phony hybrid that has little resemblance to either the real IJ in Battle Creek or the real Gospel that Dr. Ford promoted. However, Ford and those who understand the Gospel will never be fooled by this PAJ deception. Even most of the IJ people got mad about this compromise, so it has settled nothing and wasted valuable time. The whole debate will now come back stronger. Moreover, when the people realize how the leaders have betrayed their trust and made up false doctrines and dishonest Pillars that are as phony as Aaron's Golden Calf, the short-term victory of Glacier View will be reversed. False doctrine, dishonest history, and fancy graphics will not finish the work. It is time to recognize this fact. Bob said; "I still can't understand why the kind of reform that Tom wants for the SDA church would retain EGW and certain other writings of the SDA pioneers. In a way when one does that, one would seem to be forced to edit out passages in their writings that are considered supporting error. I just don't know about retaining a book like Great Controversy, and promote it as by a prophet who was inspired like the Bible writers, but have to removed parts of it due to it conflicting with official reform. And certainly having an introduction in the book that explains that certain parts of the book are now considered error, who eventually erode confidence in the book all together." The Great Controversy is not scripture and Ellen white was NOT a prophet "who was inspired like the Bible writers." Having the gift of the Spirit and writing scripture are very different. Ellen White is NOT a Pillar. The Great Controversy was an excellent attempt to understand 19th century eschatology. But we live in the 21st century, and many things must be updated, as we better understand both the scriptures and world events. This was also Ellen Whites position. "We have many things to learn and many to unlearn…" The church needs a 21st century version of the Great controversy, as the 19th century model is outdated. But that doesn't mean we need to disrespect the Pioneers. They did the best they could with what they had to work with. I am amazed with how much they got right. And if we would pay better attention to them today (not to those who would manipulate them), we would understand far more than we do. Tom Norris who supports the Pioneers | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
Ulrike wrote: "1. The ancient Jews were to look to the cerimonies which were shadows to help them look forward to the coming "Lamb of God" which takes away the sins of the world. But instead of looking forward to Christ, they looked to the sacrifices as an end in themselves to the extent that they rejected their Savior." Really, where do you find the above in the Bible. How is it someone is instructed to look at a shadow of something they have never seen. The nation had rejected God well before Christ appeared. Did you not study Amos recently. So many SDA's think that God started out telling people everything about His plans, yet strangly we find nothing in the Bible's early sections of such a plan. The revelation of God's plan was progressive, step upon step, till the revelation of God in the form of man. We can trace the growth in understanding in the Old Testament books. But thanks to certain faulty presuppositions many pretend things which were never known as if they were known. Much as you statement quoted above does. | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Bob said: "I think the SDA church probably needs to downsize. It needs to take such a strong stand on supporting the traditional view and the SOP as inspired and authoritative, that those like Tom Norris would just leave and start a new denomination." The Remnant church at the end of time will become huge. There is no hint of downsizing. Moreover, there is no reason to take such a position about removing the pioneers books and writings. The good guys don't burn books! Ellen White would NEVER support such a position. Neither would the apostles, Reformers, or the Pioneers. So why should we do so now? This record, with all its imperfections and mistakes, reflects our history and there is no reason to pretend otherwise. We need to study this history and learn from it so that we will not repeat the mistakes of the past. Furthermore, when Ellen White was alive, she rejected this very idea of using her writings as scripture. She told those debating Gospel Reform in 1888 that her writings were NOT to be used as authoritative. Only the Bible could settle a theological dispute. Did Ellen White ever change her own position on this topic? Hardly. The SDA Church must be grounded only on scripture. Period. Alternatively, it has no reason to exist. Bob said: "Or find out if most of the scholars and theologians in the church really do not support the doctrines in question, and if most don't, then reform the SDA church and remove EGW as an authority inspired by divine aid. Then those like Ulrike can move on and start a new denomination that continues the positions and doctrines that the traditional Adventist hold." I don't think that theological truth can be honestly obtained by polling. Just because everyone thinks such and such a way, that in no way makes something true. We want the truth. Nothing more and nothing less. That is what Adventism is all about. Whether it is about the Gospel or the Second Coming or the Sabbath, or whatever. We want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We want the true Pillars. But unfortunately, we are not even close to having the true Pillars. The SDA church has so rearranged the historic Pillars that all is utter chaos and confusion. Now the leaders look around and see all the chaos and corruption in the camp and wonder what happened? Surely, they are not responsible for this mess? When asked where this Golden Calf of false doctrine came from, the leaders stammer like Aaron and pretend that it all just magically happened. It must be the peoples fault. After all, they were the ones who supported this religion with their own money. They are the ones who demanded that we give them the IJ and then the PAJ. "What were we to do? They were getting upset because there had been no message from the Lord for so long." Ex. 32:21 Then Moses said to Aaron, "What did this people do to you, that you have brought such great sin upon them?" Ex. 32:22 Aaron said, "Do not let the anger of my lord burn; you know the people yourself, that they are prone to evil. Ex. 32:23 "For they said to me, ‘Make a god for us who will go before us; for this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’ Ex. 32:24 "I said to them, ‘Whoever has any gold, let them tear it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf." Since Glacier View, our leaders have reenacted this wilderness scene. The SDA leaders have crafted a Golden Calf of false doctrine in order to satisfy the demands of a rebellious people. Now it is time to tear this fraud down and confess this great sin. We must return to the original Pillars of the faith or die in the wilderness, worshipping a Golden Calf of false religion. It is time for Gospel Reform. Tom Norris, looking for the review Editor, William "Aaron" Johnsson to get some answers about a Golden Calf that is running loose all over the GC. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) |
Hubb, you mentioned prophecies of EGW concerning Loma Linda. While she recommended and approved of Loma Linda's location, was that a prophecy? She placed her stamp of approval on many things both physical, and doctrinal AFTER they had been discussed and affirmed by others. An EGW scholar has said that she never came up with a new doctrine, but only gave her approval after others had set it forth. But, I may be wrong. Perhaps you can clarify which prophecies predicted where an institution should be long before such a discussion had arisen. |
