| Author | Message | ||
     Jodi Thiessen (Jodi) |
Job 11:10-12 If He passes by or shuts up, or calls an assembly, who can restrain Him? For He knows false men, and He sees iniquity without investigating. An idiot will become intelligent when the foal of a wild donkey is born a man. Who but an IDIOT would think he should sit in judgment of God's judgment.... | ||
| Phil Harker (Pckh) |
Marsha I am still scratching my head wondering of you actually answered my question or whether you did a neat sidestep! | ||
| Phil Harker (Pckh) |
Jodi Wow, that's a leap! | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Ulrike, James White's position will not help you. I was going to use this very same quote to make my point in a future post. So I must thank you for helping me out. When the Pioneers say: "We hold that the Adventists (Millerites) were correct on three fundamental points out of four" this hurts your case badly. Why? Because this means that Miller's fundamental Pillar about the Second Coming is correct and true. In fact, that was number one on James's "correct" list that you posted. "1. They were correct as to the pre-millennial second appearing of Christ...." James makes it clear that "Miller and his associates…were correct relative to the literal and personal Second Advent." And "their mistake" about the time "does not affect the great Second Advent question, as most men suppose that it does." (pp. 180-181.) In fact, it was the proclamation of this great apostolic doctrine of the Second Coming that was seen by ALL the Pioneers as the "fulfillment of prophecy." Not the IJ which was NEVER preached by Miller. Therefore, the fact of the matter is that the ONLY prophetic message that was seen as the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message in Rev 14 was the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. This is a fact that cannot be refuted. What you refer to as the IJ, (a term that James White did NOT use in this quote) is really discussed in his 4th point. Furthermore, you are misunderstanding what James is saying. Listen again to James White: "In the great Second Advent movement of 1840-1844, a monument was raised up to which believers were to look back lest they forget that heavenly illumination." (See page 193.) Do you still think that the IJ was part of that monument? Do you still think that James White is referring to the IJ as "heavenly illumination?" He is not. The IJ does not exist within Historic Adventism. Period. The Pioneers knew this very well. The TSDA's are confusing the "explanation" for the disappointment with the theological Pillars of the first message. The "explanation" is not the same as the historic Message. You must grasp this critical concept. The historic Millerite Message was not based upon post disappointment explanations, but rather it is based upon the clear and decisive Gospel teaching about the Second Coming as the immanent Day of Judgment and the end of the world. Make a note Clifford: Here is the real Judgment Pillar of Historic Adventism! It is the Second Coming, NOT the IJ! Moreover, this "explanation," which is the associated with the Heavenly Sanctuary (Pillar #5), contained some error. But so what? The understanding of Dan 8:14 has never been without error at any time during the first two messages. So why should we expect them to get it 100% correct in the third? Only in the 4th Message will Dan 8:14 be fully understood. Furthermore, this #5 Heavenly Sanctuary Pillar (that is incorrectly referred to as the IJ) was set in place AFTER the 1st Message had expired. This means it can't ever be found within the First message as you claim. It is an impossibility. No explanation from either James or Ellen White can possibly revise what Miller said and taught during the 1st Angel's Message. Pillars don't change. History cannot be altered. Moreover, the Pioneers were not trying to make any such change. In fact, they were bending over backwards in order to preserve "Miller's Pillars." This is what set the SDA's apart from all others after the disappointment. THIS is what makes SDA's unique! That is why they claim to proclaim the Three Angels Messages. They annexed and preserved Miller's Pillars; they did NOT change them! Therefore, James White will not help you. Explanations about the past Messages are not the same as the actual messages themselves. We want the real Pillars, not those that have been adjusted or revised downstream in the 20th century. Remember that Ellen White strongly declares that nothing in these messages can ever be changed or revised in the slightest. So, stop trying. The ONLY Judgment contained in the historic First Angels Message is the correct one about the Second Coming. Period. This is a fact that cannot be refuted or explained away. THEREFORE, THE IJ CANNOT BE A PILLAR AS CLAIMED. This is a fact that none of the Pioneers could change if they wanted to. And for the record, they did not want to make such a change. They were promoting Sabbath Reform, not IJ reform. Just as Miller was all about the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment, so too, the SDA's were all about the Sabbath. The pre advent Judgment or its later development called the IJ were NEVER messages or Pillars at any time during the 19th century. The original Pillars that were set down by Miller are foundational for ALL SDA theology. And the IJ was NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. This means that Goldsteins thesis is ALL wrong. This means that Glacier View was a sham. This means we must have theological Reform in order to repair this broken and torn paradigm. Our leaders have lied to us about many things. Moreover, they will continue to do so until the members demand that they STOP. Today, the SDA's church has become so confused that it has officially rejected their own history. They have violated one eschatological rule after another until nothing much is left of this once great Protestant apocalyptic that claims to be the final Remnant church in Rev 18. Today, the SDA religion is full of falsehood and theological deceit. This is a stunning and dangerous situation. Who knew it was this bad? Today those who claim to be the Remnant are camped at the foot of Mt Sinai worshipping a false Gospel along with a false Judgment that is supposedly taking place far out in deep space. See the unbiblical hierarchy erect a shiny Golden Calf for all the people to worship and support with tithe. See both the people and their religious leaders make fools out of themselves and spit in God's face. It is time to draw a line in the sand. It is time for the spiritual descendants of Aaron to repent, for they have corrupted the great Adventist Apocalyptic and turned light into darkness. Are the TSDA's ready to admit the truth about Historic Adventism? Are Goldstein and the hierarchy ready to admit that they too have misunderstood Historic Adventism and need Gospel Reform? It is time to stop playing games with the Advent Movement. Tom Norris | ||
| Carol Manzano (Carol) |
Rev 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. This is Rev 19:20 & 21 It says nothing about false systems. It says that the beast and false prophet are cast into the LOF. The rest are slain. In chapter 20 verse 10, which takes place 1,000 years later, we see those two are still there when they are joined by the devil. | ||
| Ulrike Unruh (Ulrike) |
For all those mocking God's justice and the fact that this WHOLE SIN EXPERIENCE UPON EARTH is the revelation of what sin (the setting aside of God's Lordship and law) does.---- Those who now mock the fact that GOD WILL reveal HIS TOTAL JUSTICE and mercy to erase every trace of doubt in the minds of the faithful as to His justice and mercy--- REMEMBER THIS -- a whole host of people will COME IN JUGEMENT AGAINST GOD's Judgement-- Like the sands of the sea, from the four corners of the earth, they wake up, in second resurrection, and find themselves OUTSIDE the blessed walls of God's Holy City. In a fury against God's judgment against them they will form an army, they will descend like swarming locusts to "hang" the Judge, and take the Holy City. And yes, they are poor, enraged, fools--for they have refused God's Lordship while demanding to inherit HIS kingdom. BUT FIRE WILL DEVOUR THEM--- And all the fancy evasion of those prophecies won't save them. Now, while Christ still holds the GOLDEN CENSOR is the time come to Him and surrender our sins, and have the cleansing only He can give, so He can give us the "passport" into His CITY. "He Who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life: but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5) "He who overcomes will I make a pillor in the temple of God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name." (Rev. 3:12) These will have a right to the tree of life in the midst of the city of God. (Rev. 2:2:7, 22:2) Yes, God lays everything in the open-- why some are saved and why others are lost-- | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
Hubert wrote in part: "What would you say, if in Heaven, you found that Sister Theresa was lost, damned? Wouldn't you want some facts? Some evidence? " So after you get to heaven you are going to ask why so and so did not get in? And to you this is solved by assuming an 1844 beginning of Investigative Judgment. So I guess if this is the case the IJ does not end until well after the second coming, as people stroll around heaven and begin to get courious as to who is not there. Thinking to themselves, hey why did not so and so accept the gift of life. Oh well if a doctrine has no Biblical basis it can be used for most anything I guess. | ||
| Phil Harker (Pckh) |
Ulrike Your 'God' sounds awfully like the Mafia! Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. Should I be merciful to my fellow human beings in the same way as YOU portray your heavenly Father; or as Jesus portrayed Him? You portray a God that the world will find easy to reject! That's a pity. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) |
As near as I can understand from the new book, The Sanctuary, 1844, and the Pioneers, the doctrine of the sanctuary was not fully accepted right away. Hiram Edson had his vision in 1844, but there was much study following this, and communications to the scattered believers was poor. So it was several years before it was generally accepted. As to the judgment being AT the Second Coming: the sequence of events in Revelation 14 negates this. There is the judgment hour message in verses 6,7; followed by a rejection of God's message (Babylon is fallen) in verse 8; followed by the issue of the mark of the beast in verses 9-11. The rest of the chapter deals with certain aspects of the Second Coming. Bottom line, there are a number of significant events that occur AFTER the judgment is initiated. Hubert | ||
| Ulrike Unruh (Ulrike) |
The truth Phil is this-- God is in the business of SAVING PEOPLE FROM SIN-- He has put all the resources of heaven to this end, including and especially, Christ's death upon the cross. Yet people would rather have the poison of sin, and refuse to give it up...attacking God's law instead, to excuse their rebellion. The judgment is the very antitheisis of the Mafia which works in secret, dispatching their victims-- God will reveal how the Holy Spirit plead and wooed those people, and how they hardened their hearts -- so they could not be saved. |
