| Author | Message | ||
     William Turner DuBois (Billdubois) |
Daniel, You and I subscribe, in advance, to a view that God is good and that He is fair. In spite of many of my past seemingly contradictory comments, I really believe this, but for different reasons than the average spellbound Christian. However, what about all those who don't reason in advance from this automatic starting point? How do they arrive at this same conclusion, not having been raised or inculcated into this viewpoint? God has never submitted to free elections or delegated His powers to other eligible leaders. So how do we know what His true ratings are? The bible seems to suggest that the only polls (judgment) that are conducted are those regarding His approval or disapproval for our degree of loyalty or lack of it in subscribing to His commands, but none that are open and free to determine the entire universes feelings about Him or His job ratings. Why? Is there a forum to determine--through independent confirmation--whether God is fair and just apart from His own personal testimony, or even apart from His closest subjects? Isn't it a bit self serving to inspire or superintend a book that puts Him in the best light and always attributes problems, suffering, death to another source...evil? By allowing our zone to exist with all its horror and pain, is He not in the least, to some degree culpable? And when has a President's or Ruler's own personal testimony been enough to silence His opponent’s questions about one's use of power and the motives of the power-user? Throughout the bible, there are scores of passages (this is the whole theme and concern of Revelation) that describe God as needing to be seen as just. See the many passages (a very small sampling of this genre')below. How is that possible within the present framework that assumes in advance He is just, that He is exempt from the democratic process, nor is it necessary to determine if that is so. Purely from a comparison standpoint, we saw how for the first three weeks in Iraq it was very difficult, if not almost impossible, to determine a lack of loyalty to Saadam. Oppression and the threat of punishment eclipsed the deeper motives of the people’s allegiance. Most of us have certain contrary assumptions, but only time will tell the truth of the peoples real motives of allegiance. If God is the ultimate life giver, the creator, and the avenger, how do we know what are the true motives of all His alleged followers? Can we, or the on looking universe tell the difference between coerced obedience and freely given obedience? Or, do we as well as angels just have to take God’s word for it? Is this whole saga purely subjective and really open only to God's scrutiny? And if open only to Him, doesn't that suggest a closed system of power and dominance comparable to the worst earthly dictatorships? Power or authority that isn't open to review is normally suspect. Is God exempt from the normal process of free governance? Do we follow Him only for selfish reasons; fear of punishment or hope of reward? Is an attraction of self-seeking followers the best that that God’s love can do? I think the following passages call us to be discerning as participants with God on these issues. Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Jer 12:1 Righteous [art] thou, O LORD, when I plead with thee: yet let me talk with thee of [thy] judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? [wherefore] are all they happy that deal very treacherously? Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Remember I have said that the judgment isn't so much us being judged but us rendering an assesment on the matters and merits of Gods justice and judgment. We will make a judgment on issues of fairness, authority, and power. Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Since the fall of Satan is yet future...the establishment of salvation, strength, the kingdom, and power allude God and us. To fail to acknowledge this fact, snatches from God the very future victory He so desperately needs. Christians have locked the door and have thrown away the key. God remains on the outside Knocking on a "closed door". Sounds familar huh? | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) |
William, First, I need to appologize to Daniel for jumping in here but I really need to say this. It seems to me that you, Bill, have not been able escape the bonds that Adventist theology has placed on God. There wasn't ever any doubt that "Satan" or Lucifer or whatever his name is, would loose the debate with God. There really is no debate. Isn't the devil merely a personification of the opposite choice to God? God could not have created creatures with freedom without there being an opposing choice. This goodness and fairness outside of God that you are waiting to be revealed to man, doesn't exist. It is God that sets the scale of justice and boundaries of what is good and what is evil. There can be no debate and God doesn't need to proove anything to anybody. All He is asking is for us to relenquish our hold on autonomy and freely give Him the reins. We don't argue with Him about what the order of colors should be in the color spectrum or how the law of gravity should work. We don't expect a symposium to evaluate the laws of nature, why should we be in the position to "judge" God's justice? I feel you are ignoring a lot of scripture to come up with your theories. Job questioned God on fairness and there was only silence for a long time. Finally, for an answer, God simply pointed to His creation and asked, "Can you do that?" - end of discussion. Sirje | ||
| Daniel J. Rzodkiewicz (Djrz) |
Sirje, No problem. William, I must agree with Sirje here. You have set aside, not only vast amounts of Scripture, but you are denying the victory already won. Bill Sorenson, Sorry, lame excuse: "I'll ask the questions." The only time I ever here that type of phrase is when the speaker cannot answer the questions being asked. Still waiting. | ||
| Bill Scott (Loneviking) |
Since the fall of Satan is yet future...the establishment of salvation, strength, the kingdom, and power allude God and us..... Sorry Bill Dubois, this is more of the cultic SDA beliefs that don't line up with the Bible. The kingdom is already here, Satan is done for---all that remains is the final act....... | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) |
Right on, Loneviking, Satan and his whole earthly system was judged and defeated by the cross. John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. Sirje | ||
| William Turner DuBois (Billdubois) |
Sirje, Daniel, Bill Scott, I appreciate each of your comments. I have just about completed a response, but have run out of time and must be on a plane shortly, for a few day business trip. As soon as I finish it I will send it. | ||
| Daniel J. Rzodkiewicz (Djrz) |
William Turner DuBois, Great. I am looking forward to your answer on "ministration of death written and engraved in stone" as presented in prior posts by Denise or me whenever you can. Bill Sorenson, I am expecting more evasion or silence, but will be pleased to be proven wrong. I hope that everyone had a glorious celebration of Christ's resurrection and total victory over sin. | ||
| Bill Scott (Loneviking) |
Well Dan, I'd guess most of us non-SDA's had a great celebration! Sadly, few SDA's celebrate the resurrection, nor do they remember the day Christ died. Their focus is all on the day He supposedly rested. I have a long time friend who is an SDA pastor. I sent him an e-card celebrating Easter and he wouldn't even pick it up! | ||
| Daniel J. Rzodkiewicz (Djrz) |
Sad, but true. In most arenas of Christian fellowship, my last sentence in the previous post would have triggered a flood of affirmation, gratitude, celebration, and amplification posts. Not here. Another Gospel, indeed. | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
Why do you think that is, maybe they don't live daily with the knowledge that Christ rose from the dead almost 2000 years ago. Maybe they think to be religious is to do something on a special day in commemeration of something that really does not affect their lives. None of this is a condemnation of the SDA's. Anymore then condemning people who make a big Easter celebration because it is the only time they think about Christ's death and resurrection which may or not be the case. More likely it tells us something about those who just want people to do the religious things that they themselves do. | ||
| Daniel J. Rzodkiewicz (Djrz) |
Ron, When one to considers Jesus’ death and resurrection as “something that really does not affect their lives,” one must realize that:
I am sure you or others disagree with these statements. In what manner you do or do not celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ is of little import. What is important is one’s understanding and belief about the events if, and only if, one wishes to enter into the Biblical relationship with God called Christianity. To the extent that one does not desire that particular relationship, there is little need to consider the events. With that in mind, I must agree that, to many who post here, these events truly do not affect their lives. | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
True enough but many of those people who only go to church on Easter and Christmas still consider themselves Christians. It is to those who look for a special day of celebration that I think are most likely to misunderstand their avowed religion. | ||
| Daniel J. Rzodkiewicz (Djrz) |
Ron, You could be correct. However, in my limited experience, the following divisions are seen.
In my opinion, these are the predominant relationships to the Gospel in each case:
Of course, there are exceptions in every case, but that has been my experience. |
