| Author | Message | ||
     bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 2539 Registered: 9-2004 |
Tom's point is not so obscure as all that, Don. His point is this, the first angel's message is not about the IJ. NOT during Miller's ministry, not during any transition period and NOT today. And ultimately, his point is this, there is no IJ, period. Is his position so obscure to you that you do not understand his question? That seems to be your answer. That you don't understand the question. Tom is not concerned about various implications of the IJ. So if that is what you are trying to sort through, you have missed the simplicity of the question. If someone asks you if Jesus is the Messiah, do you answer by saying, "Well, I don't exactly when He was born, and I don't know exactly when He went back to heaven, and I don't know exactly when He is coming again?" And then avoid answering the simple question by obscuring the issue as much as possible so you can circumvent a direct answer. Go back and read Tom's question and then answer it. At a bare minimun, you can say, "I don't know." In which case, you should not be teaching religion in a SDA school. Sorensen | ||
| John G. Mauro (Jackson) member Username: Jackson Post Number: 478 Registered: 3-2002 |
Cadge said, "2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Cadge, you're mixing up the investigation to make a judgment with the execution of the judgment.. Look again at the self-evident statement of Litch: THE TRIAL MUST PRECEDE THE EXECUTION. This is so clear a proposition that it is sufficient to state it. No human tribunal would think of executing judgment on a prisoner until after his trial; much less will God.' Josiah Litch, Prophetic Expositions, Boston 1842 1:50-54 When Jesus comes again, He says His reward will be with Him. This is a clear indication that the trial is over and now judgment is to be mete out. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2008 |
Don Sands answered; Look over my response. I have reviewed what you said. However, you still have to answer the question; Yes? or No? If we were in a court of law, the Judge would make you answer the question--just as it was put to you. He would not let you dodge around. Don said: Historically, the First Angel's message took place up to the spring of 1844. There was no understanding of the significance of a sanctuary in heaven among Millerite Adventists. Correct! Thank you for admitting this fact, which few SDA's understand correctly. Which means the answer to the question must be "no." The IJ didn't exist during this time period, so how could it ever get into the 1st Angels Message. Unless the Pioneers inserted the IJ back into history, after the 1st Message closed up, you should go ahead and say "No" and admit that the IJ is NOT the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Of course they never went back and did this, even as they warned all that no such changes could ever occur to these past messages. Don said: I consider this my best answer. :-) I consider it an attempt to avoid admitting that you and the church are wrong about the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Why not just admit that you have been taught wrong and repent? This is what the White Estate is also going to have to do, because they have been the promoters of legions of dishonest and incompetent myth, and this is just one of them. They proudly teach the opposite of what Ellen White actually believed about the 1st Angels Message and the Judgment, as well as the Gospel and hermanutics. Don said: Biblical interpretation is a matter of continual development and restating, IMO. We are discussing the history and the chronological development of the doctrine of the Judgment within Adventism. We are dealing with the facts of history, not propaganda from those charlatans that have hijacked the Advent Movement. So I say again; the IJ was never part of the 1st Angels Message as all modern SDA's have been taught. You need to admit this fact and repent. So too does the White Estate. The Takoma Park apologists were very wrong to "restate" how the Pioneers viewed the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. The post Battle Creek apologists were very wrong to ever teach that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message. It was never true at any time and Ellen White never believed such a thing and neither did Uriah Smith or any 19th century SDA. It never happened. All SDA's have been misled by their incompetent and dishonest leaders about Ellen White and the Three Angels Messages. Only the original version of the Three Angels Messages is correct. The one that was promoted from the Takoma Park White Estate was a sick and twisted fabrication that did not reflect Ellen Whites views at all. Only the Pioneer interpretation of the Three Angels Message is valid and credible, and it does not contain the IJ. This critical point must be understood by all SDA's today. The Pioneers NEVER said that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, and it is very wrong for the church to teach such fabrication and myth. The Pioneers correctly said it was the Second Coming. Thus all SDA's have been horribly misled and confused by their incompetent and dishonest leaders and it must stop, stop, and stop. Don said: It is important for me to know what my spiritual forebears taught and to know it as clearly as possible. I agree. This is why we are having this discussion. Few correctly understand what the Pioneers taught. Myths and fabrication have been treated as sacred facts, while the White Estate hid the real positions of Ellen White from the church. For example; Ellen White never said or believed that the IJ was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message; so why do you think it is? Why do you support a position that Ellen White repudiates? She does not agree with Goldstein or Froom or anyone that claims the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message. She would be horrified at such a position. Ellen White condemns all the TSDA's, even as she repudiates this nonsense that the IJ is a fundamental pillar from Historic Adventism. It is not a pillar at all, much less one from the very beginning of Adventism. If anyone understood the doctrinal development of the Three Angels Messages, it was Ellen White. She has separate chapters about all of these Messages in her books. All SDA's need to read what she is saying and then answer the question about the IJ with a yes or no. The answer from all who can read honestly will be this: The only Judgment in Rev 14: 7 is the Second Coming. THIS is the Judgment Pillar of the 1st Angels Message. It is not the IJ as Amazing Facts and Goldstein insist. They are making fools of themselves, even as all SDA's have been made into fools by Arthur White. This is why the White Estate must be condemned and so too all that support their false story. They have indoctrinated thousands into believing myths and deliberate fabrication, even as Arthur White covered up the most telling of Ellen White's writings and kept them from the Adventist Community. And when caught, the church covered it up and refused to publicly discuss what happened. So I agree that every SDA should know what the Pioneers REALLY taught and believed. To understand their minds, especially that of Ellen White, is to realize that we have all been greatly deceived by those we trusted. It has to stop. The modern SDA church has misunderstood the Pioneers, as well as the very Fundamentals that define SDA theology. Don said: If, as I rethink the message of the First Angel, I conclude that "The hour of his judgment" is different than what the early Adventists taught, then I must live with my conclusions. You are not paying attention: The Pioneers excluded the IJ from the 1st Angels Message. They never said the "hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14 was the IJ. So it is your modern view that is different and wrong. All SDA's have been taught a false version of what the Pioneers believed thanks to their incompetent and dishonest leaders. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. In other words, the White Estate was lying when they taught us this theology about the IJ being in the 1st Angels Message. It was never there and Ellen White never said otherwise. For All the Adventist Pioneers, the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message was only the Second Coming. This is a fact of history that cannot be refuted, even as Ellen White makes it clear that none of these historic messages can be changed. Shame on the SDA leaders for misrepresenting the Pioneers and leading the Advent Movement into false paths that have resulted to great schism and ruin. Their version of the 1st Angels Message is a sham. And so too TA. Do you understand? I am not sure you comprehend this discussion correctly. Don said: If my conclusions take me too far removed from Adventism's view then I must either seek to change Adventism (not an easy task) or part company with the church. Thus far, my views seem quite within the range of views found within Adventism's pioneer writings. Don, pay attention; Your "Traditional View" of Adventism, which you were taught by the church, does not, not, not, have any support from the Pioneers. This is the point. TA is a fraud. It does not reflect the views of the Founders. Stunning but true. Why do you think Goldstein ran away? And why is the White Estate hiding and refusing to answer any questions? I am trying to explain the original view about the 1st Angels message to all. I am trying to show you that Ellen White does not support this myth about the IJ being a pillar in Rev 14, and she never did. The present teachings do not reflect what the Pioneers taught about the Judgment or the definition of the Adventist Apocalyptic. This is the problem. Don said: Tom, I am still trying to figure out why this issue seems so crucial to you. Keep it simple. Explain. Explain. Explain. Wow! I am trying to figure out how you can be a Bible Teacher and not understand this discussion about Adventist history and theology? If the SDA's can't get the 1st Angels Message correct, how can they get anything else right? To misunderstand the historic and doctrinal foundations of the Advent Movement will result in great division, whihc will destroy Adventism. And that is what has been taking place for years with the SDA's. It needs to stop. Adventism must return to the correct fundamentals. This is the point. Don Sands said: My salvation is in Jesus, not in my understanding of Jesus. Stop the double-talk. The NT makes it clear that there were many false and different Gospels in circulation during the apostolic period, even as there were many incorrect ways to claim salvation from Jesus. Things are far worse today. Which is why Heaven is so angry with all Laodiceans. The first doctrine in the 1st Angels Message is the Gospel. The SDA's have this all wrong as well. Which explains why their view of the Judgment is also wrong. Which means that they have the very Foundation of Adventism incorrect. There is only one correct view about Jesus, and most Christians have a mythical and very false understanding of salvation. So too do you. If you can't define and explain the Gospel correctly, which includes the ability to distinguish the law from the Gospel, and includes understanding the Judgment, then the odds are your Jesus is a figment of many peoples collective imaginations. And so too is any hope for Eternal life. 2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. The SDA's have embraced a "beautiful story of salvation", too bad that this well crafted and promoted doctrine is based on a false Gospel and a false Christ and a false view of the Judgment. They have embraced a "different Spirit" from the Apostles as well as from the Adventist Pioneers. They have revised and repudiated the Fundamentals of both Adventism and Protestantism--and it needs to STOP! Don said: Jesus measures how I treat you more than He measures if I understand him correctly. Ha! So you think Jesus is more interested in your behavior then about your Faith? What kind of Jesus do you follow? Apparently one that knows very little about the Gospel of Paul or the mercy of God. Your Jesus seems obsessed with works and behavior. I think he is a fraud. Don said: His disciples misunderstood him many times. They did not cease to be His disciples, did they? Many of Jesus disciples misunderstood him, and as a consequence, left him. John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” John 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? John 6:62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” It is very dangerous to play games with the Gospel Story. And even more so to do it on purpose as the SDA's have done. It has been a colossal mistake to exile Dr. Ford and repudiate the Gospel and the genuine interpretation of the Three Angels Message. And unless this grave error is confessed and corrected, the SDA church will continue to self-destruct. Even now the church is about to close the Review & Herald plant in Hagerstown. It seems no one wants to by their carefully crafted propaganda anymore, even though they use so much better paper and graphics than the JW's. Today, SDA theology no longer makes sense. Not to the public, or to the scholars, or even to those that were raised Adventist. Nothing is working for Adventism any more. Not even their Health Message, which is why Vibrant Life is a worthless product that has been essentially bankrupt for years, and Morningstar Farms was sold to Kellogg's. The Advent Movement is dying. The SDA's are self-destructing for all to see. It is their own fault. They have reached the end of the line unless they can start telling the truth and embrace Gospel Reform, -- which includes a return to the original version of the 1st Angels Message. Unless they repent and reform, they are doomed! So it is a very dangerous thing to misunderstand the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus about the Judgment. But this is what the modern SDA's have done. They have developed a false Gospel and false view of the Judgment that has zero support from Ellen White, much less from the apostles as they claim. Ellen White does not support TA, much less the fabricated Story that the White Estate has manufactured and promoted all these years. And neither does the Apostles or Reformers. So what is your point Don? That we can still be saved even though we have embraced a false Gospel and Judgment? Don’t bet on it my friend. Had Peter not repudiated his false view of the Gospel, he would be doomed like anyone else. Had he stood up against Paul, and tried to debate and defend his gross legalism and error, he would have been thrown out of the church by Paul-physically. When doctrinal error is pointed out, there is a decision to be made. The fate of all rests upon how we deal with those that God sends to correct us. Thus heaven sent the prophets to the Jews, and then he sent the Messiah to them, and then the apostles, but each time they failed to repent and were punished and punished until Judaism was finally ground into dust in 70 AD. There is a lesson here for all SDA's. Unless they apologize to Dr. Ford and repent for Glacier View, they too will suffer the doom of all that turn their backs on Gospel truth. Continued | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2008 |
Bill Sorensen said: Don, I have to admit that I am ashamed of such an answer as this. Talk about a politician. Are your convictions so wimpy you can not give a straight answer? I am not impressed. Nor would anyone be who expected some relevant answer to a clear and decisive question. The SDA Pastors and apologists are the greatest of double-talkers and religious charlatans. They have not been able to talk honest and straight for generations. They even resort to hiding the SDA brand during evangelistic campaigns. Now that the facts of history and theology are emerging online for all to see, all the leaders can do is run away so they won't have to answer the hard questions. Or, if they dare stick around, they double-talk and pretend that can't understand the issues, or complain that the posts are too long, etc. It is very sad. The Pioneers would cry a river of tears at the "wretched" state of the Advent Movement. Bill, the TSDA said: I may disagree with Tom. But at least I admire his straight forward approach to truth and what he believes. Bill, it is hardly difficult to "believe" in proven historical facts. So don't make this out to be a debate about "opinions." Nor is anyone's sincerity up for debate. The point under discussion has to do with the facts of Adventist history. The debate about doctrine must be based on the record and not on propaganda or spin. While the TSDA's dishonestly reject anything that challenges their views, this changes nothing. The fact of the matter is this: No 19th century SDA ever thought or taught that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. IT NEVER HAPPENED. This is not my "opinion" or "belief," but an irrefutable fact of history regardless of how many want to look the other way. Don seems to finally understand that the IJ cannot be part of the 1st Angels Message no matter what the church has been saying all these years. No doubt such a fact is very uncomfortable for all SDA's. It has silenced Goldstein and disproved his most cherished position in front of all. So he is embarrassed in front of all. The truth about the definition of the 1st Angels Message overthrows everything that modern SDA's have been taught for generations. It exposes the White Estate as incompetent and wrong, and proves that Glacier View was based on a massive fabrication about church history and doctrine. So this is a critical and very important point. Bill said to Don: But you are so typical of so many SDA's who "worship they know not what", and then "cop out" with some wimpy answer that neither identifies what they believe or explains in such a way that anyone could know what you believe or what you don't. Bill, don't be so hard on Don. Unlike you, perhaps he finally understands that what he has been taught all these years cannot be correct? He seems to comprehend that the 1st Angels Message never contained the IJ, and this historical fact is clashing with what he has been taught. He may be getting close to a breakthrough. Or he just might have a migraine and be thankful this site is shutting down. It is hard for anyone to admit they have been so wrong for so long. This is what he is trying to prevent. I think he knows he should confess that the IJ is not the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, but to admit this is to refute TA, and condemn the White Estate for promoting fraud about Ellen White and the Three Angels Messages. To embrace truth will have serious consequences for him and others, so he balks. Don is in a real bind. All SDA's are. They have been so misled and confused by their leaders--for so long-- that the only way out of this mess is full and complete repentance. There is no other way. Bill said: The simple fact is this, you are completely wrong when you made this statement..." My salvation is in Jesus, not in my understanding of Jesus." I agree. Such a statement shows a confused and incorrect understanding the Gospel, as well as the Protestant Faith. Sad. Bill said: If our understanding of who Jesus is and what He has done is so obscure we can not even identity anything objectively, and all we can say is "My salvation is in Jesus, not in my understanding of Jesus." Then we just as well join the "new age" movement or any other non-definitive religion and claim "It matters not what anyone believes, since no one knows what to believe and there is no 'truth', just anybody's opinion." I agree. Unless one can articulate the Gospel correctly, there is little reason to think they understand it, much less that they have Eternal Life. "Many" so called Christians will be disappointed on the Judgment Day when they discover that their religion was a worthless fraud. Bill said: Here, Tom gives you an opportunity to confess what you believe, and all you can say, "I worship I know not what." And then give a lot of ambiguous drivel and conclude "My salvation is in Jesus, not in my understanding of Jesus." All in an attempt to show some false humility about your opinions and understanding. First, I don't want any "confessions" about what people "believe." This is not a quest for personal or private religion. We are searching the facts of history in order to understand how the Pioneers viewed the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. It is FACTS we seek, not what anyone today may or may not believe. Second, no SDA Pastor or apologist can give straight answers about anything. If they could, they would have joined this long running discussion and made their points clear for all to see. But they are so wrong about so much, that they don't dare participate. Goldstein is a wonderful example of how tongue-tied even the most aggressive and published apologists can become when confronted with the facts. Don is questioning what he believes, and for good reason. He, like all SDA's, is very confused and disoriented right now. But if he sticks to the facts of history, he will come out fine. But if not… Bill said to Don: Let me answer for you since you don't seem to know and respond like Pilate "What is truth?" Bill, I hope your answer will be consistent with the question and the facts. Because this is not a battle between two opposing opinions. Rather, it is an issue of fact and history alone. Did the Pioneers interpret the Judgment in the 1st Angels message as the IJ? Yes or NO? This is the point under discussion. If they did, it is an easy thing to prove because they left such a large record. But if they didn't, that too will become obvious through the same record. So what does the record show? What are the FACTS of Adventist history? Place them on the table for all to see? Bill said: The IJ and the first angels are one and the same event and any viable SDA will say so and confess the same. Stop right there! You did not answer the question? I did not ask anything about an "event", but about how the Pioneers interpreted the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. So forget this "confession" nonsense. The question requires an answer based on historical fact. You have failed to give a clear and precise answer, even though I understand that both you and Don are trying to defend TA instead of just answering the question. But the point of the question is to show that TA cannot be defended because it is a historical fraud. And this question has never failed to trip up any TSDA that tries to answer it. So I ask again: How did the Pioneers view the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message? Was it the IJ or was it the Second Coming. I know you want to say the IJ, and so too does Don and all the TSDA's. But he knows that there is no proof in the record for this position. Even as there is clear proof that only the Second Coming was the Judgment in the 1st Angels message. So if you stick with the IJ propaganda, then you must show the evidence that supports your view. Where is it? Show us? Bill said: No need for any double talk. No need to pussy foot around the issue. No need to redefine how EGW and the pioneers understood this issue. All you need to do is answer Tom's question...."Yes, or, NO" Bill, I think you have misunderstood. It is the Takoma Park apologists that "redefined" Ellen White's views about the IJ. I am exposing their error and pointing you back to the original version of the 1st Angels Message. A version that all the Pioneers supported, including Ellen White. The Pioneers never changed these pillars. They never went back and placed the IJ into Miller's historic message about the Second Coming being the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. No doubt they could have done that if they wanted, but they did not. So we are left with the facts as they are. So Bill, why did you also fail to answer the question with a yes or no? So let's try this one more time shall we: Did the Pioneers interpret the Judgment in the 1st Angels message as the IJ? Yes or NO? I know you want to say yes, but the real answer is no. I can show you where they said it was the Second Coming--over and over and over; but you cannot ever show them saying it is the IJ at any time. So the answer is NO. No 19th century SDA ever claimed that the IJ was part of the 1st Angels Message. None! Not even Ellen White. David J Cadieux said: When I read Don's comment I thought that his answer fell, more or less, into the lines of 1Cor13:12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face… I think Don realizes that something is not correct with the IJ. He knows that it is absent from the Millerite time period, so how can it be part of that 1st message? But he doesn’t want to admit this because it overturns TA, which he supports and defends. So he is trying to take a halfway position and avoid answering the question directly. David said: I would think him having had perused Tom Norris' litanies Don is clearly showing that he is willing to weigh the evidence before reaffirming any prior convictions or adjusting to any changes. Don has been around a long time on this Forum and I have never seen him admit to any point that goes against TA. He is an apologist and church worker. But who knows, maybe he can break away from the stranglehold of TA and find the Gospel? David said: Sounds like a man with a open mind that's willing to hear a man out rather than a man that is dodging an answer. Don is a professional double-talker. All SDA's today must resort to such tactics in order to try and defend their absurd and impossible theology. So don't be too fast with your praise. We will see… The TSDA's never tire of throwing up diversions and roadblocks. They study to find ways to refute their critics because they are certain they have everything correct. But they have almost nothing correct. Which is why they can't honestly answer the most basic and simple question about the IJ. John G. Mauro said: The 1st angel's message refers to the investigative judgment. John, that was not the question. I didn't ask if the IJ "referred" to anything. The question was this: "How did the Pioneers interpret the JUDGMENT in the 1st Angels Message?" Was it the IJ? Yes or No? So what is it? Yes? Or No? There is only one correct answer, and it is not what the White Estate and the Review teaches, or what they have convinced you is correct. According to the Pioneers, only the Second Coming is the Judgment in the 1st Angels Messages. It was never the IJ, and all those that think so have been victim of a cruel hoax. The sooner everyone understands what the Pioneers were really saying, the sooner the SDA's can stop making fools of themselves. Continued | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2008 |
John said: William Miller had the date right but the nature of the event wrong. Who says Miller had the right date? Where do you get this myth? Miller had the WRONG DATE. He had predicted that the Judgment would take place, (meaning the Second Coming), by the spring of 1844. When that date FAILED, others started working to correct Miller's obvious error. So please stop with the myth making. Within a few months of Millers FAILED timetable, a new time period for the termination of the 2300 days was discovered and promoted by others. Samuel Snow to be specific. The new date that replaced Miller's error-- would be Oct 22, 1844. This famous date came about BECAUSE Miller had the wrong time period. (Miller rejected this date right away. However, he changed his mind and embraced it a few weeks prior to Oct 22, 1844.) So it is very wrong to say that Miller got the date correct for the termination of the 2,300 days. He did not. And the Advent Movement concluded that he had been wrong and thus they developed a new date that replaced Miller's original calculations, in spite of his protests against the Oct 22 date. This new date energized the Advent Movement and led them to promote the Loud Cry of the 2nd Angels Message. It was based on the CORRECTION to Millers ERROR about the termination of the 2300 days. This was the 2nd version of Dan 8:14. There were 4 more to come, and all of them wrong. Why is it that the TSDA's can never get their facts correct? They play fast and loose with history in order to defend the IJ. This is not healthy, honest, or worthwhile. John said: It appears Tom and others are saying that Miller had the event write but the date wrong. Miller was correct that the pre-millennial Second Coming was the Judgment of the world and the end of the world. And he said this at a time when no one else shared this strange doctrinal view. This is his great contribution to 19th century church doctrine. But his date was wrong. But regardless of that error, thanks to Miller, every denomination eventually repudiated postmillennialism, which is now extinct. Miller's basic eschatological platform would become normative for all denominations, even though few give him or the Adventists Movement the credit they deserve. For Miller and all the Adventists, the "hour of His Judgment has come" was only a reference to the Second Coming. The IJ would not exist until the late 1850's, so how could it ever play a role during the 1st Angels Message of the 1830's and early 1840's, much less define it? The IJ is not the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message and Ellen White never said otherwise. The modern, incompetent, SDA leaders have deceived generations into believing myth and false doctrine. This is a tragedy that could have been avoided. John said: Investigative Judgment Concept Before 1844. It is gross error to assume the investigative judgment was an afterthought to save face after the disappointment of 1844. Here again, the TSDA's are not being honest with the facts. Miller was in charge of the Advent Movement; he defined it; not Litch, or anyone else. And there is zero evidence to say that Miller, or any of them were mindful of a Heavenly Sanctuary needing to be cleansed of anything, much less that there was a judgment of works taking place in heaven. Miller understood the Protestant Gospel and he would never approve and such doctrine as the IJ and he never did. In fact, their view of Dan 8: 14 prevented any such idea about a heavenly sanctuary being cleansed. They all taught that the Earth was the Sanctuary to be cleaned with fire at the Second Coming. So forget this idea that Miller, or the Advent Movement had any idea, inclination, or premonition about the IJ. This is just more dishonest apologetics from those obsessed with the false doctrine of the IJ. The point of the Advent Movement was to warn the world about the Judgment of the Second Coming. This is what the record shows. Every Adventist, including Miller, Fitch, Bates, James and Ellen White, Andrews, Smith, and on and on, ONLY INTERPRETED THE SECOND COMING AS THE JUDGMENT IN THE 1ST ANGELS MESSAGE. Not one of them ever, ever, ever interpreted the "hour of his Judgment" in Rev 14: 7 as the IJ. IT NEVER HAPPENED. It is pure fiction and cultic nonsense. So stop injecting myth and legend into this discussion. This is the great sin of those that defend the IJ; they do so recklessly and dishonestly. Pitiful. John said: The investigative preadvent judgment was not some story concocted after the Great Disappointment in 1844 by either the Millerites, Hiram Edson or by the Adventists through the visions of Mrs. White. It had been postulated in print and circulated several years before 1844. Show us where Miller preached or promoted anything like the IJ? This is absurd. You don't understand Miller's theology or the Advent Movement to speak this way. I have read all of Millers sermons, and there is nothing in them about the IJ. So unless you can back it up with the proper evidence, you need to back down and stop making things up. Show us Miller promoting the IJ or retract your statement! Moreover, on Oct 23, 1844, Edson did not come up with anything close to the IJ. We have already quoted from him and I suggest that you go back and read that material. The discovery of a heavenly Sanctuary, and the idea that Christ had to "receive his kingdom" had nothing to do with any type of Investigation of the saints in heaven to see if they were safe to save. This legalistic idea would be developed in the late 1850's and then codified by Uriah Smith in the 1870's as the IJ. A decade later, such rank legalism led to a backlash led by the infamous E. J. Waggoner, and the rest is bad history; meaning schism, destruction, and the relocation to Takoma Park, where the cycle has repeated itself for all to see. The fact that Litch and others were struggling to better understand eschatology is beside the point of how they all defined and interpreted the Judgment in Rev 14. They ALL said it was the Second Coming. None of them said it was the IJ. NONE OF THEM! So again, here is the question: Did the Adventist Pioneers, including Miller, Fitch, and Litch, interpret the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message as the IJ? Yes or No? The answer is NO. NO. NO. NONE of them said, or taught, or imagined, that it was the IJ. Even when Edson developed the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary on Oct 23, 1844, he never thought that the Judgment Message was about the IJ. How could he? Everyone knew it was only about the Second Advent. That is why they were all called "Adventists." Again, when James White and others conceptualized the IJ in the late 1850's; none of them went back and tried to change the history and the prophecy that defined the Advent Movement. They never tried to change the very pillars that defined Adventism. The facts of history prove that TA is a fraud. The IJ is not a pillar, nor is it the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, as all modern SDA's have been taught. This is a fact of prophetic history, not an opinion or a belief. So once again, the TSDA's are shutting their eyes to the facts as they try to insert legend and myth into this discussion. They are trying to save face because they don't want to admit that Dr. Ford is correct and that Glacier View was an unnecessary disaster that was based on a massive fraud in the White Estate. Too bad. It is time for SDA's to hear the truth. Those that cannot admit their errors and repent will never be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem. The Remnant church is called to repentance, not to double-talk or try to justify their many errors and sins. John said: Josiah Litch 1842 Difficulty arises from confounding the resurrection and judgment, or at least from giving the resurrection the precedence in the order of time; whereas the Scriptures place the judgment first. Josiah Litch, An address to the public and especially to the clergy. Boston, 1841 Forget all this. It is beside the point and irrelevant to the question on the table. The fact that many were trying to figure out eschatology as they went along does not mean they had no hard and fast interpretation of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. They did. They all viewed the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message as only meaning the visible and pre=millennial Second Coming of Christ. (Which is why they were called "Adventists.") The Second Coming was the end of the world and the great Judgment Day of scripture. This is what the Advent Movement was all about. This is what they preached and published, and what made them famous. This is what the record of history shows. Period. John quoted Litch: Josiah Litch; 1842 THE TRIAL MUST PRECEDE THE EXECUTION. This is so clear a proposition that it is sufficient to state it. No human tribunal would think of executing judgment on a prisoner until after his trial; much less will God.' Josiah Litch, Prophetic Expositions, Boston 1842 1:50-54 The musing by Miller's subordinates about the possible need for a PAJ does not change the fundamental interpretation of Rev 14 that defined the Advent Movement. Besides, Litch is not talking about the IJ, so let's not pretend otherwise. So I repeat, all Adventists, including Litch, interpreted the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message as the Second Coming, regardless of their musings about eschatology. John said: Apollos Hale 1843, A leading Millerite editor, he came to believe that the trial judgment had already commenced, before the second coming. A. Hale. Herald of the Bridegroom. Boston 1843 22-24 So what? Like I said, they were all trying to understand the details of eschatology as they went along. Nonetheless, they were all unanimous that the Judgment in Rev 14 was the Second Coming. None of them postulated that it was the IJ. NONE OF THEM. John said: Litch and Hale thought 1844 was the Advent. In this, they were mistaken, but they believed in a preadvent judgment and thought it was occurring and would end before the supposed Second Advent of Jesus on the Day of Atonement, Oct 22 1844. Litch based his description of the judgment on Eccles 12 :14 "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil." So what? The issue is not about the necessity of some sort of pre-advent Judgment, but about how the Pioneers defined the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. And regardless of their views about this or that, they all interpreted the Judgment in Rev 14 as the Second Coming. This was the prophetic foundation for the Movement. For the record; I agree that there is a PAJ, but it is not what the SDA's developed. Rather, the LM is the true PAJ of the Remnant Church. Thus all SDA's will have to repent of the IJ as well as the false Gospel that accompanies it. But this is not church history. It has not happened as yet. But it had better take place pretty soon… John said: These early pioneers understood through Bible study that there was to be a judgment before Christ's Second coming, but they thought that the 2300 days of Daniel, ending in 1844 marked the end of the judgment and the date of the second coming of Christ. Ha! So you think that William Miller preached a PAJ? And that this was like the IJ. And thus the IJ is the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message? Wow! Leave it to the TSDA's to try and rewrite history whenever they need to avoid the facts. Regardless, of such diversions, the question still needs to be asked. Did the Pioneers ever teach that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message? Yes? Or NO? The answer is no. Not one of them ever said such a thing. Which means the SDA apologists have been promoting dangerous myths. It means Clifford Goldstein's primary point has been proven absurd and historically impossible. Which is why he has run away from this discussion. He knows he's wrong, but … Continued | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2008 |
John said: Here is a nice explanation of this by C Mervyn Maxwell: Miller was wrong when he assumed that the "sanctuary" to be "cleansed" at the end of the 2,300 years (Daniel 8:14) was the earth rather than the sanctuary in heaven. But in his defense we can say that no one, not even his most learned opponents, challenged him on this error. First, Maxwell is an apologist, not a real scholar. There is a big difference. He is neither independent nor honest, so who cares what spin he puts on things. He's part of the problem, part of the reason why the Advent Movement is dying. Second, he refutes your point that others were developing a PAJ. He said that "no one" challenged Miller about that point or introduced such a position to him. So you need to get your story straight before you try to get it backed up by an IJ apologist. David J Cadieux said: Later in life, Litch abandons earlier views: The older and wiser Josiah Litch abandoned the views held by the younger and brasher Litch. In 1867, he published a rejection of the prophetic year-day rule as a general principle of hermeneutics. For example, he concluded the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 were literal days4. In 1873, Litch wrote on the 6th trumpet of Revelation 9:15: When it is all said and done, the IJ is a catastrophe of false doctrine and legalistic confusion. Everyone that tries to defend Dan 8: 14 as the PAJ, sooner or later gives up and concludes it to be wrong. This includes EJ Waggoner, who condemned the doctrine before he died. And of course in our day, Dr. Ford and Cottrell, and a long, long list of others. No honest scholar supports the IJ, and they never will. John G. Mauro said: I don't see how Litch's change of view has any relevance as to whether the 1st angel's message refers to Christ's Second coming or to the Investigative judgment. I was using his quotes to show that the idea of a judgment before the Second Advent was advanced before the Great Disappointment and was not just freshly conjured up to save face over the Disappointment. A pattern has developed whereby the IJ is eventually rejected by those that supported it. There is a reason for this repeated behavior in both the 19th and 20th centuries. The reason is that the IJ is not valid, true, or correct. The more it is examined, studied, and investigated, the worse it looks. The pattern of rejection continues in the 21st century. Instead of the IJ gaining support over the years, it is losing. One day it will become extinct for all except the unstable and uneducated. That point is almost here. John said: His view that the trial must precede the execution and therefore the judgment must come before the resurrection of the dead is Biblical and self-evident. Ha! Since when is Gospel Prophecy-- "self-evident"? If that were the case, why did the Jews kill their Messiah? And why are the SDA's self-destructing in a debate over eschatology? The only thing that is self-evident is the need for Adventist Reform. So forget this false hermeneutic of the TSDA's that tries to make their nonsense fit logically into scripture. Doctrine is not based on logical assumptions, but on the Protestant Hermeneutic, and that is not a "self-evident" process. Besides, if Jesus wanted to teach a Pre-Advent Investigation of the saints-- to see if they are good enough to be saved, -- he knows how to communicate such information to the church. But he did no such thing. Which is why the apostles know nothing of this Celestial Investigation that supposedly started in 1844. Why not? Because there is no such doctrine, even though some think it is "self-evident." But then again, most people think Sunday Sacredness is also a "self-evident" doctrine, and that Jesus was born on Dec 25. So what does "self-evident" really mean? Not much. It is SDA code for twisting the scriptures to support the IJ. In order for the IJ, or tithe, or Dec 25, or Sunday to be true doctrines for the church, there must be clear articulation by the Apostles. There is no such teaching in the NT or the Bible about these three example doctrines, even as the Apostles repudiate the very possibility of such doctrines being valid. John said: To say that his first view was brash and his later view wise, is subjective in the extreme. All this shows is that he had two different views, one or both of which were wrong. Understand that the Adventists made many mistakes. They were wrong about many, many things. They were primitive and uneducated as compared to us today, and it is remarkable that they got anything correct. But they did. They changed how the Judgment and the Second Coming was viewed by all denominations. They developed a new eschatological model for the modern Protestant Church that endures to this day. Don Sands replied: I gave a straight answer. The insistence on a Yes or No is a ruse. First, I don't understand the issues so clearly as to answer without explaining myself. The insistence on answering the question with a "yes" or "no" is an attempt to make the TSDA's focus on the critical issues they seek to avoid. If you don't pin them down, they will run off into diversions and double-talk. So yes, I insist that the questions be answered and not dodged. Don said: I have learned from Tom's insisting on the historical explanation of the Three Angels messages. All SDA's need to discover for themselves the historical development and definition of each of the Three Angels Messages. The church leaders have so bungled Adventist history that they have been caught teaching myth and fraud for generations. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. We all need to unlearn what we have been taught, and then learn the facts. The White Estate and the Review have been caught misleading and deceiving the Adventist Community about the very fundamentals that define SDA theology. Arthur White was caught red handed hiding thousands of Ellen White documents just before Glacier View. But the church covered up his crime and went on to promote the fraud of TA at Glacier View anyway. What a fatal error this was… This is why we are having such a public and focused discussion. This massive fraud in the White Estate must be exposed, --and that is what we have been doing online for a number of years. And this campaign to explain the truth to SDA's will not stop until the whole world knows what has taken place and the record corrected. Atomorrow has had a great role in allowing this information to be presented and discussed for all to see. When every other Forum censored Adventist Reform, Atomorror honored the proposition of free speech as well as open and honest discussion about the issues in the SDA church. Consequently, thousands have a new understanding and appreciation of both Adventist history and doctrine. Many have a much better understanding about things. A sincere thanks to JR for keeping this discussion alive and moving forward over the years. He has played an important role in trying to help save the dying and dysfunctional Advent Movement. Don said: I have noted: The Millerites gave the First Angel's message up to the spring of 1844. Correct. Good for you! Don said: The Second Angel's message took place during the summer of 1844. Correct again. Don said: The Third Angel's Message took place after the disappointment of October 22, 1844. Correct. However, the date of the 3rd Angels Message does not begin until 1847. It took the Pioneers a few years to work things out. There was a gap between the close of the 2nd Angels Message--on Oct 22, 1844--until the spring of 1847 when the Word to the Little Flock was published. http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflockcontents.html Don said: The early Sabbath-keeping Adventists considered the first two to be given, past tense, and the third to be Present Truth. James White wrote against those who wanted to keep presenting the first or second messages. Correct again. Very Good! This thread has been going on since 2002, and I think that perhaps you might be understanding some things? Ellen White also wrote very strongly against those that would change any of these past messages. Which is why there is no basis in SDA theology to go back and revise or change these historic and prophetic messages that define and empower the Advent Movement. Don said: Now, this view may have changed. It seems to me I read somewhere that they came to view the three as a package of truth. The Pioneers never changed their position about the Pillars or the interpretation of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. They knew that the Advent Movement rested on the proclamation of the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. This is what defined them. While they viewed the 3rd Angels message as an active prophetic message, they purposefully incorporated the previous two messages into their theology and history. Thus they would often refer to themselves as the guardians and promoters of the "Three Angels Messages." But even so, they knew that a last and final message would supplant the 3rd Angels Message. They called this the Loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message. This is what the church must still develop. Why? Because the 3rd Angels Message has failed and terminated. Just like all the previous messages. Continued | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2008 |
Don said: Since the investigative judgment concept developed a little later, it technically cannot be included in the first angel's message; at least not the one understood historically. Correct! Good for you. It is HISTORICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the IJ to be located in the 1st Angels Message. Those who place it there are breaking every rule known to historians and theologians. They are taking a position that is the OPPOSITE from Miller as well as from Ellen White and all the Pioneers. How strange that these very same ones that claim they are following and defending Ellen White's view of things, --are doing no such thing. To follow Arthur White is very different from following Ellen White. Don said: I don't see how this chain of facts solves everything Tom is concerned about. Don, the Advent Movement is in a fatal crisis. It needs reform on all fronts. I have articulated 12 areas that need specific reform. However, the first of these reforms starts with this issue about the definition of the 1st Angels Message. Why? Because this is the FOUNDATION of Adventism. If the SDA's can't understand their own historic foundations correctly, and return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages, then there is no use for them to go on any further. Eschatology is what defines them. If they get it wrong, it will ruin them just as Ellen White predicted. And this is exactly what has taken place. Here is the first point of Adventist Reform: 12 Challenges to SDA Doctrine: 1. Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original version of the 1st Angels message. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers. http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/14372/15315.html?1222173098 This first point is a paradigm shifter. It overturns everything that the SDA's have been teaching for generations. It proves that repentance and reform are necessary. Bill Sorensen said: Tom's point is not so obscure as all that, Don. It has taken years of discussion for many to understand the issues. And many are still unable to comprehend what is being said. Growing up in a world of organized propaganda and cultic indoctrination takes a toll on peoples minds. It makes truth hard to comprehend. This question about the definition of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Messages is like a time bomb. As people begin to understand the facts of Adventist history, it dawns on them that the Takoma Park version of Traditional Adventism cannot possibly be true. It is a real stunner. At some point, the facts will overturn generations of myth and deception from the church leaders. And it all starts with a simple question about the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Bill said: His point is this, the first angel's message is not about the IJ. NOT during Miller's ministry, not during any transition period and NOT today. Correct! Good for you Bill! Bill said: And ultimately, his point is this, there is no IJ, period. Well, there is a doctrine of the IJ. This is a fact of history. I am not trying to deny it. It was developed in the late 1850's in concept and name. Many years later, Uriah Smith codified the doctrine and wrote a book about it. And Ellen White use Smith's view in her writings about the IJ. So there is no use denying that such a doctrine was crafted by the SDA's and embraced by all of them in Battle Creek--including Ellen White. But this doctrine was never placed in the 1st Angels message by any of them. They correctly associated it with the 3rd Message. THIS POINT ALONE proves the incompetence and dishonesty of the White Estate and all the SDA apologists. They have all been grossly misrepresenting Ellen White's views on this important point. Who knew? Nonetheless, the IJ has turned out to be wrong on numerous levels. Thus, all must repudiate it. Bill asked Don: Is his position so obscure to you that you do not understand his question? That seems to be your answer. That you don't understand the question. Don understands best, what he has always been taught about the IJ. He has always been taught that it is located in Rev 14: 7, and that is what Ellen White supports. This is what all modern SDA's have been taught for generations. Bill, this is you have been taught, and what you firmly believe to this very day. But it is not true. It never happened at any time. Ellen White does not support what the leaders have claimed all these years and they need to be held accountable for this massive and deliberate fraud. Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” Don has been forced to face the facts of Adventist history, which show that the IJ could not be located in that historic Message that is the FOUNDATION for the Advent Movement. This is new to him and to all SDA's. So he is very perplexed and unable to respond coherently. Moreover, he also knows that Ellen White has made it plain that no one is to change the Pillars that are contained in these 3 prophetic messages. So he is confused and unable to reply. Goldstein faced the same question many times on this Forum, and he also refused to answer and ran away. Why? Because this one simple question overturns generations of SDA myth and propaganda. Every Sabbath school should study this question and try to answer it. The correct answer changes everything for Adventism. Bill said: Tom is not concerned about various implications of the IJ. So if that is what you are trying to sort through, you have missed the simplicity of the question. There are no good implications associated with the false doctrine of the IJ and the legalistic Gospel of works that is associated with it. But there are many bad implications. The first being schism, and the second being the self-destruction of the Advent Movement. Hardly anything to be proud of? John G. Mauro quoted Cadge, who said, "2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; John then said: Cadge, you're mixing up the investigation to make a judgment with the execution of the judgment.. Look again at the self-evident statement of Litch: Forget looking at Litch, he is not an apostle, much less the leader of the Advent Movement. In fact, if you were paying attention to Paul, instead of Litch, you would have understood that the Judgment is at the Second Coming. This is what the text in 2Tim clearly says. "who shall judge the quick and the dead --at his appearing and his kingdom;" "At His appearing" is hardly consistent with a Pre-Advent Judgment. So why did you try and misuse Paul to support the IJ? At his appearing means-- at the Second Coming. Not BEFORE the Second Coming. So the text you are trying to use to promote the IJ, repudiates it. Moreover, this idea about an "executive Judgment" being the Second Coming is SDA double-talk meant to try and make the IJ work. When the NT speaks about the Judgment, it is almost always talking about the Second Coming. This is what Miller understood and preached as he fulfilled the 1st Angels Message and started the Advent Movement. John said: THE TRIAL MUST PRECEDE THE EXECUTION. This is so clear a proposition that it is sufficient to state it. No human tribunal would think of executing judgment on a prisoner until after his trial; much less will God.' Josiah Litch, Prophetic Expositions, Boston 1842 1:50-54 This "proposition" is worthless. God can do what he wants to do. He is not bound by our views or perceptions. But the church is bound by the teachings of the Apostles. If they do not promote the IJ, then that is the end of the matter regardless what Litch, Fitch, or Smith say. When will the TSDA's learn that it is the APOSTLES that formulate all doctrine for the church? If the NT does not sustain any doctrine, then it must be discarded. The IJ has zero support in the NT. That is the end of the matter for any Protestant. John said: When Jesus comes again, He says His reward will be with Him. This is a clear indication that the trial is over and now judgment is to be mete out. Doctrine is not built on assumptions and "indications"--but on the clear Word of the Apostles. So you can forget this nonsense about a trial of the saints in heaven. The Apostles do not teach any such a thing, much less that we are saved by an investigation of our works. This is wretched doctrine that repudiates the Gospel. Shame on any that have embraced this false judgment. However, the point is valid that there must be some kind of PAJ. And there is indeed just such a thing for the last church. It has been in the NT all the time. It is called the Laodicean Message. THIS is the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church. http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/9651.html?1154462379 Today, it is time for all SDA Pastors, Scholars, and all those in the pew, to start thinking critically and honestly about their Faith. While there is much truth in the Advent Movement, there is far more error than truth in the SDA church right now, which explains why it is self-destructing for all to see. Let all SDA's correctly define the 1st Angels Message and them ask their leaders why they have been so wrong all these years? And why they exiled Dr. Ford for telling the truth about the Gospel and the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message? With a little study, everyone can understand that the IJ was never located in the 1st Angels message-- as the church has been teaching all these years. With a little reading, all can discover what Ellen White really believed about the Judgment, which is very different from what the White Estate teaches. The fact of the matter is this: Traditional Adventism is a fraud that was invented in Takoma Park by incompetent and dishonest leaders. There is no excuse for such wicked behavior that has ruined modern Adventism and confused millions. It is time for the White Estate to confess what they have done and correct the record. They are guilty as sin and they are not going to get away with what they have done. Woe is Adventism if they do not repent and return to the Prophetic Fundamentals that define and empower the Advent Cause. The Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment are the true doctrinal pillars that anchor the Advent Movement in the 1st Angels Message. Accept no substitutes. I hope this helps, Tom Norris for Adventist Reform | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 5187 Registered: 5-2006 |
Sanctuary Message Part of Present Truth, 1851
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| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) member Username: Sirje Post Number: 2957 Registered: 2-2002 |
But such subjects as the Sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days, the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, are perfectly calculated to explain the past Advent movement, show what is our present position, That was then (1861); this is now (2008). Perhaps their "present truth" is not our "present truth"? | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 5188 Registered: 5-2006 |
Loughborough, The Hour of His Judgment Come, 1854 (This presentation shows that the linkage to the first angel's message and the judgment in heaven happened quite early in Adventist history.) Review and Herald, Feb. 14, 1854, pp 5-6, Rochester, N.Y.
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| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2008 |
Don, you posted over 2,000 words about the Pioneers. But these many words change nothing. You still have to answer the question: So I ask again: How did the Pioneers view the Judgment in the Historic 1st Angels Message? Was it the IJ or the Second Coming? Is it still too difficult? Did the Pioneers teach that the IJ was the judgment in the 1st Angels Message? YES OR NO? Answer the question if you dare! | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 5190 Registered: 5-2006 |
How did the Pioneers view the Judgment in the Historic 1st Angels Message? Was it the IJ or the Second Coming? Loughborough taught that the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, where Daniel would stand in his lot, was encompassed in the first angel's message. Note again, the highlighted sections of the post before yours. James White and the others at the Review supported Loughborough in this assertion. So, I conclude that these pioneer Adventists came to view the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary to be the intended message of the first angel. The Second Coming belief was a disappointment. They contend that God led them through the experience, guided them from the error to the truth and brought them along to more truth. I see no other conclusion based on Loughborough's presentation and on James White's three years later. There is still a difference in these essays presented by the early pioneers and later statements of a further developed "Investigative Judgment" doctrine. Your insistence on a YES or No is childish or lawyerish but not very impressive. A YES or NO would yield limited understanding. Most issues of any note cannot be easily distilled to such brief answers. We need to discuss the issues more before my YES and your YES mean the same thing. | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 5191 Registered: 5-2006 |
Perhaps their "present truth" is not our "present truth"? Perhaps. We get closer to understanding such by reading the three-fold statement in its context. The statement was written to encourage their preachers to not go off on inconsequential topics and to avoid fanaticism. The three were calculated to unite the flock and sanctify the soul. Unity and sanctification remain issues today. The commandments of God (the eternal Law of God) are always relevant; the faith of Jesus, as well. The sanctuary message encompasses the work of God throughout the "sin problem"; thus it too seems to be still relevant. From 1851 to the present, other issues have come into focus; i.e. the need to organize in the 1860's; Gospel finance from the 1850's through the 1870's; the health message; education; righteousness by faith; etc. etc. etc. | ||
| bill sorensen (Billsorensen) member Username: Billsorensen Post Number: 2542 Registered: 9-2004 |
How is it people fail to understand Tom's question, or refuse to give a clear and concise answer? The answer is this, no one before 1844 thought the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary was the issue surrounding this date. No one I know of at least. How hard is this to say or conclude? Now let's deal with the real issue Tom has raised. Does our church today teach that the pioneers before 1844 believed it was the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, and even more importantly, (as Tom claims) do we teach people this false idea? Tom claims our church teaches people that before 1844 the pioneers held this view. The fact is, our church teaches no such thing and never has. We never tell people that William Miller and his supporters thought that 1844 was the beginning of the cleansing of the sanctuary. And for Tom to imply and state this is what "Tacoma Park" Adventism is teaching is either a lie, or he is ingnorant beyond comprehension. We do teach that Miller and his supporters "thought" Jesus was coming in 1844. But in fact, after the event, it was discovered the "cleansing of the sanctuary" was not the second coming, but Jesus' judgment ministry in heaven. And for Tom to keep harping otherwise is ridiculous. So ,no, Tom, we do not teach the pioneers all believed the 1st angel's message was about a heavenly IJ. We do believe SDA pioneers, some of whom also participated with Miller, changed their mind and saw it was a judgment message taking place in heaven and not the physical return of Jesus to earth. And so SDA's, including EGW, teach and endorse the fact that the first angel's message is/was about the judgment in heaven, counter to what Miller and others had thought previously. Tom creates a "false dilemma" by trying to convolute the issue, and then claim no one can "change their mind" if the original understanding is not true. How childish is that. Since the apostles of Jesus did not see Him making an atonement for sin in His death on the cross at the time, and thought He had come to set up His physcial earthly kingdom, they can not "change their mind" and see they were wrong and endorse another position. And if they did, we must reject their "new" position as false, since it is not in harmony with the first position. Therefore, Jesus is not the Messiah, He did not set up an earthly kingdom as His disciples believed He would. Quit "bickering" with Tom and make him explain exactly what he means, and then answer his question. Tom hopes to convolute the issue and then claim EGW did not really believe in the IJ. Maggie has exposed him years ago. Just because EGW did not believe in the IJ before 1844 does not negate the more mature understanding and interpretation. This is what Tom hopes to "prove." She did say the "final" interpretation was immovable and thus she said..... -BC- CW -TI- Counsels to Writers and Editors -CN- 2 -CT- The Character of Periodical Articles -PR- 02 -PG- 26 -TEXT- The Three Angels' Messages.--The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old." Tom wants to apply this to the original interpretation. But she never said this about the first interpretation. Only the "final" interpretation which included the IJ. Sorry Tom. Your tactic will not "fly" and it won't work and can deceive some people some of the time, but not all the people all the time. Give it a rest. Sorensen | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) member Username: Sirje Post Number: 2959 Registered: 2-2002 |
Don, The commandments of God (the eternal Law of God) are always relevant; the faith of Jesus, as well. The sanctuary message encompasses the work of God throughout the "sin problem"; thus it too seems to be still relevant. While these may be relevant, the way they are relevant might change over time. While the "eternal law of God" is always relevant, our view of what constitutes that law may change. It's not so much what the Bible says that changes, but our understanding of what it says just might. If we adhere to EGW predictions about the RCC being the beast that suppresses God's people, we might not see that other powers in this world are taking the place of the RCC as that power; and that God's people might have a broader application than what EGW thought. It might even include the RCC on the world stage. The whole question comes down to what is immovable and what we leave open. I still believe that the description of the 144000 as being virgins and following Jesus where ever he leads is referring to people who aren't controlled by any church or its dogma, but follows the leading of the HS in these matters. If one is devoted their specific church teaching and considers it dogma, what room is there of ever growing in understanding? | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 395 Registered: 1-2008 |
Please forgive me for jumping in Sirje, but your comment.... "I still believe that the description of the 144000 as being virgins and following Jesus where ever he leads is referring to people who aren't controlled by any church or its dogma, but follows the leading of the HS in these matters". ...is precisely as I see it also. The 144,000 will not be of one corporate body of a particular denomination, but gathered together from a worldwide gleaning of those who walk after the Spirit from a multitude of believers whether it be one that walks with God and belongs to no denomination or one who belongs to some body is irrelevant. Cadge | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) member Username: Sirje Post Number: 2960 Registered: 2-2002 |
Cadge, Yes, well, according to the agreed upon symbolism in the book of Revelation that woman represents "church", the implication is that the "virgins" who "have not been defiled by women" refers to those who have no allegiance to a church but only to "the Lamb" and "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". Despite the SDA use of all these symbols of Revelation that produce the pictures of beasts rising from the sea and grotesque figures chasing the "woman" into the wilderness, it is not ready to agree to this explanation of the 144000 because that would call into question the dogma of SDA belief. The problem is that SDA theology sees the leading of the HS only through what it calls, "The Spirit of Prophesy". The idea that the HS can lead individuals is not accepted. | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 396 Registered: 1-2008 |
Sirje, It is beyond me why any would rather remain in the "lesser light" when the Greater is where He would have us be. God uses people for us in the beginning of our journey,lesser lights, but we learn from Him after that. 1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 1Cr 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. But I've got a feeling that you already knew this, didn't you?  Cadge |
