| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
I sympathize with your perplexity about all this. No doubt the TSDA's are in anguish, and the fearful hierarchical leaders are on the phone to the lawyers asking them to assess the church's legal exposure for promoting this spectacular fraud for all these years. No doubt they want to know if they are at risk for a class action suit for fraud from the members when they finally figure out how badly they have been manipulated and fooled. There should be no doubt that the truth about the IJ, and the Three Angels messages, is a surprising one; as is the truth about NT Tithe. But who doesn't like a good surprise? It can make life more interesting and even exciting at times don't you think? I fully realize that what I am saying seems impossible, even stunning. But you, me, and everyone else have been greatly misled by the 20th century SDA leaders. They have made us all the subjects of a sophisticated indoctrination campaign that twisted Adventist eschatology to fit their political agenda for power and control. It may take awhile for many to comprehend the import of these discussions about Adventist Reform, but once one understands how the historic paradigm of the Three Angels messages really functions, Adventism will make much more sense. And so too, will Ellen White. Ron said: "Though you wrote a lot as usual you still did not tell me if you think the IJ as EGW wrote it out in the GC is right or wrong." She was right because she did NOT place this pre- advent doctrine in the first message, as many think. But she was wrong to buy into the legalistic part of the doctrine that was a later derivative from the correct Pillar about the Heavenly Sanctuary. She and all the Pioneers were also wrong in many of the details associated with Dan 8:14 as Dr. Ford has pointed out. But she is correct to say that the discovery of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary, directly after the great disappointment, is a true pillar that allowed the Third Angel to be developed. Ron said: "It seems to me if you say that she is right then your whole system falls apart, it does not matter what the historic first angels message was. If you say that she was wrong, then your whole theory of the pillars of the Adventist movement could be wrong since she seems to be the source you derive the authority of the pillars." It matters a great deal how the 1st Angels Message is defined. And it mattered to all the SDA Pioneers as well. Furthermore, my "theory of the Pillars" is not based upon Ellen White, but rather the facts of Adventist history after a number of decades of research. While I use Ellen White to make many points, I could also quote James White, the real genius behind SD Adventism, or Bates or Andrews or Smith, etc. But most people are far more familiar with Ellen White and she wrote so extensively and so well about all this, it makes it easier to use her. Ron said: "If she is wrong about the IJ, she could be wrong about the pillars also." Ellen White never claimed to be infallible. She knew that there were doctrinal errors within the Third Angels message--especially after the 1888 debacle. She knew that doctrinal changes would come. But NOT to the structure, chronology, or to the doctrinal Pillars contained in these Three Historic Messages, that represent the heart and the soul of the Adventist Movement. These Three Messages are immovable and beyond revision. Also, it is a mistake to think that Ellen White either developed or sustained the Three Angels messages, as if she was a Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientists or Ann Lee of the Shakers. Ellen White had nothing to do with the formation or proclamation of the first two messages and she played a minor role in the formation of the third Message as compared to her husband. Without James White especially, and Bates and so many other men, there would have been no SDA church. Ellen White has been elevated way out of proportion to her historic role in developing the SDA church. Moreover, if she is wrong about the Pillars, so too are all the other SDA Pioneers because the Adventist Apocalyptic was a genuine, historical, ecumenical, and Protestant movement, not a one woman cultic show as the White Estate has falsely pretended all these years. All the SDA Pioneers were unanimous about these historic messages. They did not depend upon Ellen White whatsoever. Miller is far more important, and so too is James White. Ron said: "(I think you view that you can fit the IJ after the first two angels but before the third is not born out in the writings of any of the SDA pioneers.)" The only place the IJ can possibly reside is AFTER the close of the Second Angles Message and BEFORE the start of the Third. But to be more precise, it is not even there. Why? Because it did not exist at that time. Rather, what is there is the discovery about the Heavenly Sanctuary. THAT IS THE CORRCT PILLAR ABOUT THE SANCTUARY. Many years later, in Battle Creek, this correct Pillar became CHANGED AND REVISED into the legalistic doctrine called the IJ. And then, in Takoma Park, this twisted doctrine was moved way back into the historic 1st Angels Message and declared foundational, historic, and sacred, when it was not. That is what Glacier View was all about; the promotion of false doctrine and dishonest history. But the facts are the facts. And it is time to uncover this fraud and set the record straight. Then it will be time for the leaders to confess and repent. But they don't want to do this. So they will fight to keep this cover-up alive. They will use whatever tricks they have to stop Adventist Reform and fight the Gospel as well as fight the emergence of true Adventist eschatology. Pauli Heikkinen said on Tuesday, August 27, 2002: "But could it be - at least in theory, if not practice - that you do focus too much of you attention to the book of Revelation? Namely, there are 66 books in Bible, approximately, (depending on whose Bible we are speaking of), and Revelation is only one of them." Prophecy can be found throughout the Bible, not just in Daniel or Revelation. In fact the entire Jewish/ Christian paradigm is founded upon prophecy. Moreover, Jesus was a prophet and an apocalyptic, which means that it is impossible to avoid prophecy for anyone who claims to follow Christ. Moreover, we are dealing with Adventism, which is a unique, prophetic, Protestant paradigm about the end of the world. Today, if one wants to discuss eschatology, there is nothing to compare with the Adventist Apocalyptic, which claims to be the legitimate and authentic prophetic model for the end times that can be traced directly from the Apostles as well as from the Reformers. If you can find a better paradigm to explain how the end of the world will take place, then by all means please direct me to it. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Pauli said: "What if the ecumenical councils which determined the books on Canon, made a mistake with Revelation, IOW: what if its rightful place were not in the Bible? In that case you have wasted innumerous hours in chasing after a mirage." Then I would agree with Paul that I am a very foolish and I should have been partying instead of studying Adventism. 1Cor. 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. From what I can tell, most everyone is obsessed with the pursuit of money. Perhaps I should focus on getting rich? Maybe that would be a more worthwhile endeavor then studying Adventism? (After all, that's what the SDA leaders promote. Growth and tithe; that is their obsession.) Luke 12:16 And He told them a parable, saying, The land of a rich man was very productive. Luke 12:17 And he began reasoning to himself, saying, What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops? Luke 12:18 Then he said, This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry. Luke 12:20 But God said to him, You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared? Luke 12:21 So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. James 5:2 Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. James 5:3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! James 5:5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Well, after reading the above, this spending your life trying to get rich might not be the way to go? What do you suggest I do with my time? Hang out at the comedy club? Pauli said: "But even if Revelation actually belonged to the Bible, what if its main purpose was to comfort 1st century Christians? In that case applying the angels to the 19th century instead of 1st century, is little bit dubious." Such a preterist view would also mean that I should party more and study less. If there is no hope for a Second Coming and no new earth after that, then what is the point of Christianity? There would be no point and it would be nothing more than a hoax and a fraud. Therefore, let us Party, or get rich, or whatever, until we die. Pauli said: "Of course your time is your time and I do not intend to dictate how you will use it. Undoubtedly studying Revelation can be a rewarding hobby. There are numerous worse hobbies, but IMHO, numerous better objects of study, too." If the world self-destructs in the next decade or so, and the great time of trouble starts, everyone will be wishing that they had been better prepared. At that time many will wish that they had paid more attention to Adventist prophecy and to the things of God. Remember what happened a year ago on 9/11? The greatest and most powerful country in the world was reduced to shock and fear, temporarily paralyzed by a small handful of the low-tech enemies who hate the Jewish/ Christen paradigm. What happens when massive destruction hits? www.cantcryhardenough.com/ What happened in New York and Washington, D. C. was only a small preview of what is to come. The demise of Western civilization is near and the doom of this planet inevitable. What has been foretold by Jesus and the apostles, and the historic Adventists, will happen one day, but who is prepared for such calamity? Certainly not the SDA's. They are so confused about their own eschatology; that they can't even correctly explain what happened in their own history, much less articulate the future of the world. Dan. 12:1 Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. No one should forget that Miller was the one who reintroduced the awful truth about the time of trouble and the end of the world. The Adventist Apocalyptic has always featured this horrific time that will lead to the end of civilization, as we know it. The passing of time has not revised this fact. It is a major part of the Adventist Apocalyptic and not something to be ignored or taken lightly. Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; Rev. 18:5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Rev. 18:6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. Rev. 18:8 For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. Rev. 18:9 ¶ And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, "Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come." Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste! And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, "What city is like the great city?" Rev. 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste! Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Today neither the SDA church, much less the world is prepared for the horror that is ahead. Those that claim to be the experts on eschatology, and claim to have all the truth for others, do not even understand or believe their own warnings. They are focused on a false theology of growth and riches that would shock and repulse our eschatological Pioneers, as well as the Reformers and Apostles. Matt. 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matt. 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. I personally think the study of eschatology is not only fascinating, but also very relevant to the world in which we live today. I can't imagine something more exciting, important and valuable. But that's just me. Pauli said: "I envy your mastery of a certain literary style or genre, namely that of "J'accuse". Unfortunately nowadays I have very few occasions to use it." Join Gospel Reform and you can use this style all day long against the corrupt SDA hierarchy. Try it out on Goldstein; he is a lot of fun. But don't be too impressed about style. That is NOT what has frightened the now tongue tied leaders into silence. They are well able to handle any type of debating style, as they are seasoned professionals who are very experienced in homiletics as well as all phases of writing, publishing, etc. Rather, the problem is that they cannot refute the FACTS of these public accusations, nor defend their false theology. They have been caught peddling false doctrine and dishonest history on a massive scale that is shocking, even to them. And they are completely out of excuses and don't know what to say. That is why they tried so hard to silence these discussions with their typical 1950's brand of heavy-handed censorship. That's why the Atoday Forum went down in flames, as well as the one before it that the church managed. Those in control of the hierarchy know that if these facts become widely known, the leaders would be in great danger of losing their credibility (what little is left) as well as all their power. So forget style. The truth cuts deep. These eschatological discussions about Adventism are all about substance, not style. Pauli said: "Sometimes I ponder, might your message get more penetration power, if you now and then used some other stylistic trick, for example a benevolent humor??" I am not sure that being a comedian would make much of a theological impact. This topic is deadly serious. But I did laugh long and hard when Goldstein was demolished online. I thought that was very funny. And so too did a number of others. And I think it is still very comical that not one SDA leader has been able to answer Dr. Ford's interview or to enter into these discussions, much less refute the serious charges that I have been making online against the hierarchy for a number of years. I don't know about you, but THIS makes me laugh out loud. No doubt there are some red and angry faces at the GC because of all this. They thought that when Dr. Ford retired, they were safe and in the clear. But this is just another of their many comical miscalculations. However, what is funny to one person may be the opposite for another. But at least there is some humor in all this if you look hard enough. Understand that this is only the first phase of a detailed plan to reform Adventism. While it may seem humorless and harsh, a theological indictment must be publicly crafted so that all can see the extent of the crime that the SDA leaders have committed at Glacier View. Because we are dealing with an intractable and corrupt hierarchal organization that brings in over a BILLION dollars a year; smooth talk is totally useless. To be sure, there is a sweet and loving side to the Gospel and the sooner the Adventist Community can get there the better. But for now, someone must play the role of a prosecuting attorney who can face up to the corrupt leaders that have hijacked the Adventist Apocalyptic. Make no mistake about all this: there has been a theological crime committed at Glacier View. I have acquired the evidence and I understand the motive. I can identify the guilty conspirators and convict them in the court of public opinion: It is the leaders of the SDA Denomination, not Dr. Ford who were guilty at Glacier View. And I intend to make the case in the court of public opinion and let the Adventist Community decide the verdict, as well as the fate of these corrupt leaders who are destroying the Advent Movement. While this may seem like an unusual and presumptuous task, it is a necessary one nonetheless, because if no such action were ever taken, these leaders would go on as if they were innocent. They would never voluntarily confess their crime and they would never give this prophetic paradigm back to the people because it is a much-coveted source of personal power and wealth for those at the top. So there must be a real fight to wrench this stolen paradigm back from their unholy and greedy grasp so that the Adventist Community, and then the world, can share this priceless eschatological treasure before it is forever too late. I welcome your support in nailing the corrupt SDA leaders to the wall and emancipating Adventism so that it can return to the Protestant fold with haste. It is time for this unique eschatological church to do its duty and prepare itself, and then the world for the final events that may be much closer then we have ever imagined. Tom Norris, (not Robin Williams or Dennis Miller) for Adventist Reform | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
Tom Wrote: Ron said: "Is the SDA churches teaching in harmony with those two chapters?" Absolutely NOT! Why? Because the leaders claim, like Goldstein, that these chapters about the IJ actually represents a fundamental doctrinal Pillar from the 1st Angels message when such a position is historically impossible and theologically absurd.... Many years later, in Battle Creek, this correct Pillar became CHANGED AND REVISED into the legalistic doctrine called the IJ. And then, in Takoma Park, this twisted doctrine was moved way back into the historic 1st Angels Message and declared foundational, historic, and sacred, when it was not. That is what Glacier View was all about; the promotion of false doctrine and dishonest history. Well I don't want to get into an EGW said this in one place and that in another place. My experience with her writings is that she is not very consistent and often contradicts herself. Having said that, I still think it is pretty clear that the SDA church views on the IJ is due to the teachings of EGW. You have to remember that she is thought of as an authority to the church. Most in the church look at her as a Biblical prophet at best, and an inspired commentator on the Bible at least. For every quote you can find that says don't quote sister White quote the Bible, I can give you 3 quotes that say don't disregard her testimonies (the testimonies and Spirit of Prophecy are frequently used by her as a reference to her writings.). So many times she will refer to the first angels message as that which Miller and other taught. However as the following quotes from the 1911 Great Controversy say, Miller etc. did not see all the "truth's" that were supposedly to be found in the Revelation message. (See one last comment after quotes) ----------------------------- GC.351.002 Like the first disciples, William Miller and his associates did not, themselves, fully comprehend the import of the message which they bore. Errors that had been long established in the church prevented them from arriving at a correct interpretation of an important point in the prophecy. Therefore, though they proclaimed the message which God had committed to them to be given to the world, yet through a misapprehension of its meaning they suffered disappointment. GC.352.001 In explaining Daniel 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," Miller, as has been stated, adopted the generally received view that the earth is the sanctuary, and he believed that the cleansing of the sanctuary represented the purification of the earth by fire at the coming of the Lord. When, therefore, he found that the close of the 2300 days was definitely foretold, he concluded that this revealed the time of the second advent. His error resulted from accepting the popular view as to what constitutes the sanctuary. GC.352.002 In the typical system, which was a shadow of the sacrifice and priesthood of Christ, the cleansing of the sanctuary was the last service performed by the high priest in the yearly round of ministration. It was the closing work of the atonement --a removal or putting away of sin from Israel. It prefigured the closing work in the ministration of our High Priest in heaven, in the removal or blotting out of the sins of His people, which are registered in the heavenly records. This service involves a work of investigation, a work of judgment; and it immediately precedes the coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; for when He comes, every case has been decided. Says Jesus: "My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. It is this work of judgment, immediately preceding the second advent, that is announced in the first angel's message of Revelation 14:7: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." GC.352.003 Those who proclaimed this warning gave the right message at the right time. But as the early disciples declared, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," based on the prophecy of Daniel 9, while they failed to perceive that the death of the Messiah was foretold in the same scripture, so Miller and his associates preached the message based on Daniel 8:14 and Revelation 14:7, and failed to see that there were still other messages brought to view in Revelation 14, which were also to be given before the advent of the Lord. As the disciples were mistaken in regard to the kingdom to be set up at the end of the seventy weeks, so Adventists were mistaken in regard to the event to take place at the expiration of the 2300 days. In both cases there was an acceptance of, or rather an adherence to, popular errors that blinded the mind to the truth. Both classes fulfilled the will of God in delivering the message which He desired to be given, and both, through their own misapprehension of their message, suffered disappointment. ----------------------- GC.424.001 Both the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," and the first angel's message, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come," pointed to Christ's ministration in the most holy place, to the investigative judgment, and not to the coming of Christ for the redemption of His people and the destruction of the wicked. The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message, and which must be fulfilled before the Lord could appear to give reward to His servants. So Tom I think that your Adventist Reform movement is doomed to failure, as long as you allow EGW to remain an authority to the SDA church. On this discussion group I doubt that you have even 1% of those here who agree with your analysis. And out of this group it is doubtful that there is even 25% of a traditional SDA bent. I would like to know, as I am sure you would just how many agree with you on this subject. I hope people will let us know. | ||
| Dave Barringham (Daveb) |
Zip+Nada-Zero. (It's similar to Tom's career batting average in TPAAA):-) | ||
| Pauli Heikkinen (Heipauli) |
Tom Norris: Make no mistake about all this: there has been a theological crime committed at Glacier View. I have acquired the evidence and I understand the motive. Pauli: On the crime issue our opinions are convergent. When one SDA editor answered to the complaints on how the Glacier View meetings were reported, saying that the foremost function of a SDA paper is to bolster faith and not report accurately, I cancelled my subscription to Ministry. For me it was like a writing on a wall... If you still believe that Adventism is salvageable, I somehow understand your efforts, but still think that there could be more effective means to use for your goal. If a pun is allowed, many times it seems to me that your method is more affective than effective. One Finnish bank chain recently had in TV a repulsive advertisement several times a week. I contacted a representative of that bank and told that if they do not stop that kind of advertizing, I'll sever my ties to that bank. How it happened that yesterday they had a quite different advertisement, one of the best I've ever seen in TV. IMO it will bring them a lot of new customers from now on. But back to the core issue: If Laodicea represents Adventism, does it seem to you that John was lied to, when he was told that Laodicea could be vomited out? IMO Laodicea will be doomed. I understand that the idea is too painful for you even for considering it, isn't it? I hope that you could still believe that my sympathy is with you. My experience in Finland has been, that every time a critic of Adventism starts accusing, the listeners will shut their ears. So I realized that there must be better ways. Pauli | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Ron Corson said on Friday, August 30, 2002: "Well I don't want to get into an EGW said this in one place and that in another place. My experience with her writings is that she is not very consistent and often contradicts herself." Like I said, EVERY SDA PIONEER holds to the exact same historical formula about the definition of the Three Angels Messages. Bates, James White, Andrews, Smith, etc. This is a fact that no one can refute. Ellen White was also 100% in agreement about this core understanding, upon which the SDA church was founded. That is why Goldstein ran away. He cannot refute the truth about the Three Angels Messages, nor the fact that he and the hierarchy have become so confused about the definition of Adventist eschatology that they don't know what they are saying. So this is not about Ellen White, it is about the history and theology of the Three Angels Messages. Those that think the IJ is located in the first Angels Message, or that the SDA leaders went back and officially changed Millers historic Messages in the 19th century are dead wrong. It never happened and it can never happen. This is a fact that must be dealt with. And until it is, the SDA church is in full apostasy against all the Adventist Pioneers and against the prophetic paradigm upon which the fate of this church rests. Deal with it. Don't deny it. Ron said: "Having said that, I still think it is pretty clear that the SDA church views on the IJ is due to the teachings of EGW." That is what the leaders said in Glacier View. And that is why they changed Millers foundational message in the 20th century. There is no doubt that this is what they taught (indoctrinated) everyone in the 20th century. But it was a lie. I have been in the White Estate. I have seen the documents that the leaders have been hiding all these years. I have uncovered the real story about the 1888 debates in Battle Creek that Froom and the White Estate have hidden all these years. They did this so that they could dishonestly misuse her writings to support their anti-Gospel, IJ fraud. So while you are very correct to say that the leaders blame their confusion on Ellen White that does not mean that they have done this honestly or that the real Ellen White would support this absolute DECEPTION AND FRAUD. She would not. They have lied about Ellen White to everyone and ruined her name in the process. Ron said: "You have to remember that she is thought of as an authority to the church. Most in the church look at her as a Biblical prophet at best, and an inspired commentator on the Bible at least." The original SDA leaders (including James White) never thought of Ellen White as either a theologian or a bible writer. In the 1850's she was totally banned from the Review by James for four years so that no one would think that the SDA doctrines were based upon her spiritual gifts. And when the 1888 debates started, the leaders totally rejected what she said and wrote. They rejected her spiritual gifts, and exiled her to Australia for the rest of the 19th century. How does that action square with this idea that "most of the church took her as a Bible prophet?" We have all been taught so many lies about Adventist history and Ellen white that it is mind-boggling. The White Estate has done more to harm the Adventist Movement and to ruin Ellen White then any of the critics. Pity. "We must study to find out the best way in which to take up the review of our experiences from the beginning of our work, when we separated from the churches, and went forward step by step in the light that God gave us." "We then took the position that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position." (Ellen White, Lt 105, 1903). In the 20th century, after she was dead, the leaders made her into this "inspired commentator" and into an OT prophetess and a female apostle. They elevated her only so that they could misuse and manipulate her for their own nefarious purposes to control the people. But when she was alive, the leaders rejected her strongest testimonies. This is just what the Jews did to their prophets. Matt. 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, Matt. 23:30 and say, "If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets." Matt. 23:31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Matt. 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. Matt. 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell The SDA's are the prophetic parallel of the Jews, who had so confused their own eschatology that when the Messiah came to them, they thought he was the enemy. Just like the SDA's today, who have exiled the Gospel and confused the Three Angels Messages, the Jews had likewise so twisted and convoluted their own apocalyptic that Jesus could not even use the term Messiah because it had taken on a poplar meaning that was the opposite of what was intended. The leaders had so badly indoctrinated the Jewish Nation that the truth was unrecognizable and strange. The SDA's have done the exact same thing. Ellen White is not responsible for this chaos. She has been greatly maligned and deliberately misrepresented. Ron said: "For every quote you can find that says don't quote sister White quote the Bible, I can give you 3 quotes that say don't disregard her testimonies (the testimonies and Spirit of Prophecy are frequently used by her as a reference to her writings.)" You will never find Ellen White saying to ignore or disregard the scriptures. Or that she is equal to, or above the Bible. The fact that she did have some teaching authority within the church is irrelevant and beside the point. Ron said: "So many times she will refer to the first angels message as that which Miller and others taught." This is what you and others have been taught, but it is NOT true. Ellen White NEVER said that Miller taught the IJ or anything whatsoever about a heavenly sanctuary. You are misreading (with the help of the confused and dishonest SDA leaders) her words and misunderstanding the context of the rise and progress of the 3rd Angels message. We have gone over this many times now and you have yet to produce any statements from Uriah Smith or Ellen white that makes such a claim. Some time ago, Ulrike of the TSDA's thought that J. N. Andrews was placing the IJ in the 1st Message, but she soon found out that he was not saying that either. It is time to stop with the delusions that our leaders have promoted. No SDA ever made this outlandish and irresponsible statement as many assume. We have been tricked and mislead by our leaders just as surly as the Jewish leaders tricked and confused everyone about their apocalyptic. Every SDA leader and theologian in the 19th century knew his or her history much better than we do today. And they never pretended that Miller's First Message, or the Second, contained anything about the IJ, much less about a sanctuary in heaven. This is a fact that time will never change. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Ron said: "However as the following quotes from the 1911 Great Controversy say, Miller etc. did not see all the "truth's" that were supposedly to be found in the Revelation message." This is very different from saying that the IJ was a part of his historical message. If Miller didn't understand about the heavenly sanctuary, and he didn't, then how could anyone say that it is part of his famous message? So this type of statement does not help your position at all. Ron quotes the GC.351.002 "Like the first disciples, William Miller and his associates did not, themselves, fully comprehend the import of the message which they bore. Errors that had been long established in the church prevented them from arriving at a correct interpretation of an important point in the prophecy. Therefore, though they proclaimed the message which God had committed to them to be given to the world, yet through a misapprehension of its meaning they suffered disappointment." This statement will not help you. In fact, it says that Miller "proclaimed the message which God had committed to them to be given to the world." And guess what? Miller had never heard or imagined anything about the IJ. So apparently God knew what he was doing, even if Miller did not. And no one can say that God placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message. He did not. Miller did not. And neither did the SDA Pioneers. But the 20th century leaders DID make this tragic mistake, and THIS has been the source of confusion and legalism ever since. This error was the foundation for Glacier View, along with the rejection of the Protestant Gospel. Why any critic would try and defend this nonsense is anyone's guess. The TSDA's defend it because they don't know the gospel or church history, but why would the critics try to say it was true? Ron quoted the GC.352.001. "In explaining Daniel 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," Miller, as has been stated, adopted the generally received view that the earth is the sanctuary, and he believed that the cleansing of the sanctuary represented the purification of the earth by fire at the coming of the Lord. When, therefore, he found that the close of the 2300 days was definitely foretold, he concluded that this revealed the time of the second advent. His error resulted from accepting the popular view as to what constitutes the sanctuary." This correct statement about history proves my point, not yours. And it was this error about the earth being the sanctuary in Dan 8:14 that was corrected by the SDA's. Here is the 5th Pillar, AFTER the first two messages had been terminated, and before the Third was started. There is no hint that they went back and put words in Millers mouth and made his famous message include the IJ. Ron quoted the GC.352.002. "In the typical system, which was a shadow of the sacrifice and priesthood of Christ, the cleansing of the sanctuary was the last service performed by the high priest in the yearly round of ministration. It was the closing work of the atonement --a removal or putting away of sin from Israel. It prefigured the closing work in the ministration of our High Priest in heaven, in the removal or blotting out of the sins of His people, which are registered in the heavenly records. This service involves a work of investigation, a work of judgment; and it immediately precedes the coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; for when He comes, every case has been decided. Says Jesus: "My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. It is this work of judgment, immediately preceding the second advent, that is announced in the first angel's message of Revelation 14:7: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." This statement does not say, or even insinuate that Miller preached the IJ, or that is was a theological component of the historic Adventists in the First Message. Rather, it represents the EXPLANATION to the disappointment, which is very different from Millers actual message. Ron quoted the GC.352.003. "Those who proclaimed this warning gave the right message at the right time. But as the early disciples declared, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," based on the prophecy of Daniel 9, while they failed to perceive that the death of the Messiah was foretold in the same scripture, so Miller and his associates preached the message based on Daniel 8:14 and Revelation 14:7, and failed to see that there were still other messages brought to view in Revelation 14, which were also to be given before the advent of the Lord. As the disciples were mistaken in regard to the kingdom to be set up at the end of the seventy weeks, so Adventists were mistaken in regard to the event to take place at the expiration of the 2300 days. In both cases there was an acceptance of, or rather an adherence to, popular errors that blinded the mind to the truth. Both classes fulfilled the will of God in delivering the message which He desired to be given, and both, through their own misapprehension of their message, suffered disappointment." This won't help you position either. Ellen White is not saying that the IJ was a part of the historic First Angels message that "fulfilled the will of God." In fact, she is defending Miller's message, which God "desired to be given." And guess what? There was absolutely no IJ anywhere to be seen in the First or Second Angels Messages. Period! End of the discussion. Stop acting like the fanatical TSDA's who have made a career out of trying to make Ellen White say what they want her to say. The IJ has never existed in the first message as the leaders have taught all these years. And Ellen White has never said otherwise. Ron again quotes Ellen White in the GC.424.001. "Both the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," and the first angel's message, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come," pointed to Christ's ministration in the most holy place, to the investigative judgment, and not to the coming of Christ for the redemption of His people and the destruction of the wicked. The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message, and which must be fulfilled before the Lord could appear to give reward to His servants." Sorry, but you are not comprehending things clearly. Here, as elsewhere, Ellen White is discussing Millers sanctuary error. She is not saying that his historic message actually contained the IJ. In fact, she is saying the opposite. You are perpetually confusing the SDA's EXPLANATION for the actual contents of Millers famous heaven sent message. There is a big difference from saying that Miller was wrong and that he should have said such and such, versus saying that the IJ is a legitimate doctrine that is located in the historic First Angels message. This is apples and oranges. You have not made your case. You have failed to defend Goldstein's dishonest Glacier View position, although I am sure he appreciates a critic trying to defend him. But this is all rather strange. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Ron concluded: "So Tom I think that your Adventist Reform movement is doomed to failure, as long as you allow EGW to remain an authority to the SDA church." What ever gave you the idea that I think Ellen White should have doctrinal authority? She does not have any doctrinal authority whatsoever, and I have never said otherwise. For Protestants, and true Adventists, ONLY the Bible, and more specifically, the teaching of the apostles, has any doctrinal authority. Ellen White never claimed doctrinal authority. It was the leaders who dishonestly promoted her that way. But Ellen White is a great historical witness that helps explain the Adventist Movement. She was a great woman who has been deliberately manipulated by the leaders and made to look like a cultic fool, when she was no such thing. She would never have supported Glacier View any more then she supported the leaders in 1888. And if she were alive today she would blast the leaders for their corruption and their eschatological confusion. She would apologize to Dr, Ford and demand that the Gospel be welcomed back into the Adventist church and that the true Pillar about the heavenly Sanctuary be placed in its proper place AFTER the Second Angels message and before the Third. Ron said: "On this discussion group I doubt that you have even 1% of those here who agree with your analysis. And out of this group it is doubtful that there is even 25% of a traditional SDA bent. I would like to know, as I am sure you would just how many agree with you on this subject. I hope people will let us know." Both Atoday and this place is the most liberal and hostile of all the SDA online venues. So I am under no illusions that what goes on here is representative of anything except the widespread theological chaos and pain that is now the hallmark of modern Adventism. But this I know: no one has been able to show that the IJ belongs in the historic 1st Angels message as we have all been taught and as Glacier View so dictated. This is a stunning development that has NOT been lost on the leaders who regularly monitor these discussions. Goldstein couldn't do it. The TSDA's couldn't do it. And now the critics have also failed spectacularly. Such an outcome represents a significant and surprising accomplishment that should not be underestimated. Moreover, the same goes for NT Tithe. Not one person has been able to defend that scandalous doctrine that almost everyone thought was correct and valid. So again, considering that no one was apparently even aware of this issue prior to these discussions about Adventist Reform speaks for itself. The fact of the matter is that a new path has emerged that will work to gather together those who are tired of the endless confusion and deceit that is so rampant within Adventism. The old useless debates have now been replaced with meaningful positions that cut to the heart of the matter and expose the long time cover-up that is responsible for the present crisis that is destroying Adventism. Pauli Heikkinen said on Saturday, August 31, 2002: "On the crime issue (about Glacier View) our opinions are convergent. When one SDA editor answered to the complaints on how the Glacier View meetings were reported, saying that the foremost function of a SDA paper is to bolster faith and not report accurately, I cancelled my subscription to Ministry. For me it was like a writing on a wall..." Good for you! If everyone had demanded that the leaders tell the truth about Adventist history and the Gospel back then, things might have been different today. But there was so much fear about being fired and such that many of those who should have stood tall, slinked away like cowards. I won't mention any names, but there were plenty of men who knew that the unscrupulous and dishonest leaders were railroading Dr. Ford, but because they feared for their own pensions, they kept quiet and cowardly watched the Gospel get slaughtered at Glacier View. And the church has gone downhill ever since that fateful meeting. Pauli said: "If you still believe that Adventism is salvageable, I somehow understand your efforts, but still think that there could be more effective means to use for your goal. If a pun is allowed, many times it seems to me that your method is more affective than effective." New means and methods will come, but until that time, the fundamental errors that form the basis for this present crisis must be uncovered and exposed in no uncertain terms. There is no smooth way to correct false doctrine. The history of Gospel Reform makes that clear. Why? Because those in control, whether they be the Jewish hierarchy in the days of the apostles, or the Catholic hierarchy in Luther's day, do not take kindly to anyone challenging their fraudulent authority. So there is always a nasty fight when it comes to Gospel Reform. Nothing has changed except that the State will not allow those that speak out against the leaders to be hauled away in chains. But, believe me, if they could do it, they would, because they see these discussion as a threat to their control. And well they should, because what we are saying represents the doom of the TSDA's as well as the hierarchical SDA administrators that invented and empowered them. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Pauli said: "If Laodicea represents Adventism, does it seem to you that John was lied to, when he was told that Laodicea could be vomited out?" If the SDA's don't get their act together, God will once again destroy them like Ellen White claimed he did in Battle Creek at the turn of the century. The leaders have taken great pains to ignore the real reason why the church moved to Takoma Park. But the truth is that they moved here because there was so much confusion and schism in Battle Creek that it was impossible to stay. The movement was in utter chaos and then their great buildings were destroyed by fire and they had to sneak out of town, virtually bankrupt. They left behind a ruined empire and were forced to start the 3rd Angels message all over again from Takoma Park. IF the SDA's don't want to see their own history repeated, they had better listen to heaven and REPENT for misrepresenting Ellen White all these years and covering up and destroying documents in the White Estate. They had better REPENT for confusing and dishonestly revising their eschatology of the Three Angels Messages; and for rejecting the Gospel and for replacing the doctrine of the Second coming with the IJ, and for destroying the health message and for adopting the Roman Catholic model of church organization, and for what they did to Dr. Ford at Glacier View and to Ellen White in 1888. There is so much for them to REPENT of. I don't think Heaven was playing games about this at all. If the SDA's fail to REPENT, they will be spit out and destroyed just like the Jews that they so closely parallel. Pauli said: "IMO Laodicea will be doomed. I understand that the idea is too painful for you even for considering it, isn't it?" Not at all. That is what I am saying. Unless the leaders stop with these games, the SDA church will be destroyed. It is almost useless today anyway. I don't think there is much time left for the SDA's to get their act together. They are living on borrowed time. What happened in Battle Creek 13 years after 1888 has also been taking place after Glacier View. The SDA church is self-destructing, and for good reason. Who knows how close they are to total destruction? Pauli said: "I hope that you could still believe that my sympathy is with you. My experience in Finland has been, that every time a critic of Adventism starts accusing, the listeners will shut their ears. So I realized that there must be better ways." I thank you for your support and understanding. But at this point, the leaders can plug their ears all they want. That is an old trick that the rebellious Jews used to defend their rejection of the Gospel and to deny that Jesus had entered the most holy place in the first century, (not 1844). Acts 7:51 You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Acts 7:52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; Acts 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it. Acts 7:54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; Acts 7:56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. Acts 7:58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. But covering ones ears, so as not to hear the truth, didn't work then and it won't work now. The truth is still the truth regardless of whether it penetrates into the leaders brains or not. In fact, when it is time for a paradigm change, it will change. And no one will be able to stop it. It is time for Adventist Reform. Tom Norris | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
I think it is kind of funny, to see some of your comments Tom. For instance I said the following: So many times she will refer to the first angels message as that which Miller and other taught. However as the following quotes from the 1911 Great Controversy say, Miller etc. did not see all the "truth's" that were supposedly to be found in the Revelation message. (See one last comment after quotes) To which you broke off the first sentance and gave it meaning that it did not intend. This is what you and others have been taught, but it is NOT true. Ellen White NEVER said that Miller taught the IJ or anything whatsoever about a heavenly sanctuary. You are misreading (with the help of the confused and dishonest SDA leaders) her words and misunderstanding the context of the rise and progress of the 3rd Angels message. This seems to be a trend in your interpretation technique for example in reference to the GC quote where EGW says that " This service involves a work of investigation, a work of judgment; and ..It is this work of judgment, immediately preceding the second advent, that is announced in the first angel's message of Revelation 14:7:..." Tom responded: This statement does not say, or even insinuate that Miller preached the IJ, or that is was a theological component of the historic Adventists in the First Message. Rather, it represents the EXPLANATION to the disappointment, which is very different from Millers actual message. Now I am quite sure that I said previously that the SDA's were reinterpreting the first angel's message in the light of the fact that Christ did not come when they thought. Really Miller backed off from his previous interpretation of the first angels, message also. None of the so called 3 angels messages had the same import as they have taken after the second coming did not come as predicted. But as the great words from the movie "the Point" say: "you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear." | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
In Answer to Tom's question: And when the 1888 debates started, the leaders totally rejected what she said and wrote. They rejected her spiritual gifts, and exiled her to Australia for the rest of the 19th century. How does that action square with this idea that "most of the church took her as a Bible prophet?" When she came back she certainly took the reins and control of the church. Went about and ruined the reputations of men like J.H. Kellogg, A.T. Jones etc. Published lies about them, called them spiritualists and Pantheists. Promised to answer their questions concerning her and her visions and then did nothing. So yes indeed to me they were seeing her as quite the prophet. If people have not read the A.T. Jones letter on the subject they really should it is found at: A.T. Jones' Letter to Mrs. E.G. White | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Ron Corson said on Saturday, August 31, 2002; "Now I am quite sure that I said previously that the SDA's were reinterpreting the first angel's message in the light of the fact that Christ did not come when they thought." You did say that. But what you fail to comprehend is that what you call a reinterpretation was only an explanation for the disappointment and in no way qualifies as an eschatological revision of the historical First Angels message, which is the foundation for the entire paradigm of the Three Angels messages. Until you understand this critical point, nothing will make sense and Ellen White will be guilty of doing what she said could never be done. Moreover, if you take the time to read about the early development of the Third Angels message, you will see how impossible your theory really is. In fact, if you read the many history books about this time period, like Knight's book called "Millennial Fever; A Study of Millerite Adventism," you would see that at no time did James White or Bates (much less the young Ellen White) EVER revise or change the First Message as you claim. Listen to James who wrote: "Many stopped at the First Angels Message, and others at the Second, and many will refuse the Third, but a few will follow the lamb?" (Present Truth, 1850). What set the future SDA's apart from all other Adventists after the great disappointment, was their insistence that the first two Millerite messages were the direct fulfillment of prophecy and could never be changed, abandoned or renounced. Therefore statements (and visions) abound about how these messages could never be removed or adjusted. As far as they were concerned the Three Angels messages were a "firm platform" that could not be changed or revised. "I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance." (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.) All the Pioneers echo the classic statement above. And it does not for a second contemplate a change in what Miller proclaimed or a revision to the actual contents of the first two messages as you insist. Listen to James White: "The position of those who discard the great movement which made them Adventists, and yet cherish some of the leading views of William Miller, and rejoice in the Advent name, is more inconsistent, and their course far more sinful in the sight of God, than that of those who made an entire surrender of both position and name. What a position in the sight of God, angels and men! They bless the Advent faith, hope, and name, and curse the vary means which has made them what they profess to be!" (James White, Life Incidents, p.265, 266.) To confuse the historic First Angels Message with the explanation for the disappointment, that took place after the First and Second Message had closed, will effectively scramble the Three Angels Messages and destroy the foundation of this unique prophetic paradigm. Not one SDA Pioneer would allow such a disgrace, as it would effectively nullify their prophetic paradigm and place them in the same camp as those Millerites who abandoned these messages after the great disappointment. Moreover, this hermeneutical blunder of thinking that these first two messages are open for revision and change has opened a Pandora's box that has allowed the legalists to go back and place doctrines in that First Message, like the IJ, that were never there, and can never be there. This fraud happened at Glacier View. So I stand firm with all the SDA Pioneers, including Ellen White, who knew the difference between the prophetic contents of Miller's Message and the later explanation of his sanctuary error in Dan 8:14. I suggest that you stop lifting statements out of context from Ellen White's published writings, and go back and study the formation of the Third Angels message, including the works of James White and Bates in order to better understand what the SDA Pioneers were really saying about these prophetic messages. I can assure you that they were not claiming that had the power to change the fulfillment of prophecy after the fact. They explained the mistake as it related to the disappointment, but they never claimed to have the authority to go back in time and change, or revise, the actual message about the Second Coming that Miller delivered. This was an impossibility for them and even more so for us today. Ron said: "Really Miller backed off from his previous interpretation of the first angels message also. None of the so called 3 angels messages had the same import as they have taken after the second coming did not come as predicted." After the great disappointment, the Millerites did indeed "back off" from these first two messages at the Albany Conference in 1845. (The Third was not yet formed.) Bates and some others were furious about this. In fact, this is where the future SDA's come in. They were the ones who declared that these first two messages were heaven sent and could not be changed or removed under any circumstances because they viewed them as the literal fulfillment of prophecy. So for those who would become SDA's, the previous two messages did indeed have the "same import" as before the disappointment. And from this well documented position, and because of this position, they went on to champion the Third Angels Message and linked it together with the first two that had ceased. Hence the Three Angels messages. The first two were in the past and closed up, while the Third was active and alive. But they were all linked together as a unique prophetic paradigm that was to guide the Remnant church until the close of time. When you understand how the Pioneers viewed this eschatology, you will see how impossible it is to claim that they changed Millers key message or made these dramatic revisions that you claim they made to his historic prophetic message. It was their position that they were the only ones (out of all the post disappointment Millerites) who were correctly protecting the first two messages from revision or removal. So spin it any way you want, but understand that not one SDA Pioneer would ever agree with your position about them revising Millers' First message, or to the Second one that contained the popular Midnight Cry that Miller did not support until the last minute. In addition, every Pioneer, including Ellen White, would deny that that the doctrine of the IJ, (or the more correct one about the Heavenly Sanctuary), was ever located in Miller's First Message, like the TSDA's have claimed all these years. It is an absurd impossibility that cannot be supported by the facts of history. And you will never find any credible historian making such a claim because it never happened, regardless how it may appear otherwise in the published writings of Ellen White or Smith. Continued... |
