| Author | Message | ||
     Hubert F. Sturges (Hfsturges) |
Maggie, just for your information, I have dear friends in the "self supporting work" in the South. I have strong sympathies for them and their work. I have also spent three years at Weimar Instiute on the staff. Maybe I am one of those people you talk about. I have tried to not use EGW for any of my discussion on this forum, not because I don't believe she was used by God, because I DO believe this. But I also believe what she said about basing our belief on what the Bible said. IMO EGW is misused in two areas -- those who abuse her and her writings and misconstrue what she said; and the much greater portion of people who just don't take time to read what she said. These two groups overlap to a considerable extent. Why is there such opposition to EGW? EGW herself gives the reason -- since she exposes the methods that Satan will use in the end times, Satan has made her and her writings a special target for his efforts to devaluate Christianity in every respect. As we look at the SDA church, we also need to recognize the fact that God's people have always been the special target of Satan's efforts to destroy. And indeed, as we look at God's work on this earth, we just might need to dig through some rubbish to find the pearls and the diamonds. Having said this, I also recognize that you personally have a high regard for EGW and what she has written. You are one of the few "brave enough" to post cogent quotations from her writings!! | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) |
Hubb, this is a very complex subject, for sure. I would dearly love to check myself into Weimar, or one of the other lovely places the independent ministries operate, for a month or so! Yummy food, interesting classes, nice people, long walks, loving attention--delicious! Over the weekend, I watched with rapt attention a 3ABN presentation on how to make charcoal poltices. (OK, I'm easily entertained, but I thought it was great!) That said, an academy student who lived with us years ago went on to work at one of independent health ministries, and she came back to see me. She was wearing a little old-fashioned 'bonnet' she had sewn to cover her beautiful auburn hair, so as not to foster pride, and to 'cover her head,' as per the Bible. That is suggestive of many other changes in her life which I found heartbreaking. She pleaded with me to come back to the Lord and live as she lived. It was just so painful, I didn't know what to do at the time, and we lost contact with each other. (April, if you're out there, I love you, sweetie. E-mail Mama at hearts-of-gold@juno.com.) Hubb, I can't even tell you how much I like and respect you--you're fun, you're knowledgeable, and you have heart, and most of all, you're a peacemaker, which is beautiful. I can't bring myself to challenge anything you've said above. All I can do is relate what happened to me in my life, my body, my mind, my family. It happened. It was real. I don't want to blame anybody, probably not even the devil, actually. It just happened. We're all just human, and we're in this together. I was under enormous strain, and I fell to pieces. The Great Bereavement is not the figment of Arthur Patrick's imagination, I believe. Whatever cannot be faced by some in a family or church must be borne by others, it seems to me. The shadow must fall somewhere. This is not necessarily a tragedy, but can be an opportunity for growth, viewed a certain way. I believe that God is the Blessed Controller of All Things, and this situation has been abundantly redeemed. Can't wait to see how it all turns out! I hope Ellen White and I can enjoy some Red Clover tea and have a nice chat in the great By and By. Maggie | ||
| Ron Corson (Roca88) |
This is a reminder for Tom Norris, haven't heard from him in a while maybe he is on vacation. Post from June 8 Let us for the moment forget the 1,2,or 3rd angels messages. I would like to know what you think of the things EGW wrote concerning the IJ. For instance her Chapter in the Great Controversy 1888 version titled the "Investigative Judgment" now called "Facing Life's Record" and the chapter called "In the Holy of Holies". Is her concept or interpretation right or wrong? Is the SDA churches teaching in harmony with those two chapters? In your answer remember I am not asking about any Angel's message from Revelation. | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Maggie Bockmann said on Saturday, June 8, 2002: "I didn't say psychologically damaged, just burned, Tom, as in "taken to the cleaners" in some way. Can I just take that (Koresh comment) back, no hard feelings?" No need to take anything back as there are no hard feelings. To live on Planet earth IS to be burned. This is a doomed place for a doomed race. So anyone who understands the reality of our desperate situation should not be faulted for trying to find a solution for this fatal dilemma. Even Koresh can't be blamed for trying to make sense out of the eschatological confusion of 20th century Adventism. No doubt as you say; "Koresh went on an extreme course and did become extremely psychologically unbalanced." But what circumstances led to this fanatical tragedy? In large part, it was the theological vacuum of modern Adventism that facilitated such a bizarre, irrational, and deadly eschatology. It was the lack of a meaningful eschatology and a Gospel community combined with the elevation of Ellen White above scripture that allowed so many SDA's to follow such nonsense in the first place. Just think about it. The high-water mark of the Adventist Apocalyptic in the 19th century was when America held its breath to see if the world would end as the Millerites predicted in the fall of 1844. But in the 20th century, the high-water mark of eschatological activity and National attention for Adventists was Waco, Texas. That was where the world witnessed a perverted and twisted manifestation of the Adventist apocalyptic that was as historically irrational as it was theologically ludicrous and downright criminal. Waco represented all that Adventist eschatology had become after Glacier View: The Adventist Apocalyptic had been officially reduced to a false, confused, and corrupt eschatological paradigm that had rejected the Gospel along with the Protestant hermeneutic about Scripture Alone. So out of corruption came more corruption. The whole nation watched as this twisted eschatological scene unfolded into a miniature conflagration of the last judgment, complete with fire, smoke, and the death of men, women, and children. What a sad and embarrassing day for Adventism. The denomination's false and carefully balanced eschatology had led to an even worse aberration that horrified that Country. Our leaders, who shared in the making of this awful tragedy, just ran away and pretended they didn't know anything about Koresh being an SDA or any such thing. Waco's irrational and fanatical theology was no less "wretched" and pitiful in God's sight than is the post Glacier View fraud of the Three Angels Messages that is now served up in the Review on a weekly basis. Koresh, as the insane hierarchal leader of his own self-serving offshoot Adventist group, was no worse a fraud and con man than our corrupt leaders are today. Our GC bunch just looks better. But don't be fooled by appearances. The SDA leaders are taking this church straight to hell just like Koresh did with his followers. And for the very same reasons. They both denied the Gospel, and rejected the historic Protestant theology of the Three Angels Messages, choosing to elevate the role of Ellen White above that of scripture and using her for an excuse to deceive, manipulate, and control. In fact, Koresh taught, just like the SDA hierarchy, that it was his role to explain Ellen White and convey her supposed theology to all. Listen to his words: "So let me get one thing straight. I'm not gonna paint any dead prophets sepulcher. But I will honor the spirit of Ellen White, by, as time permits, showing you from her writings the very things that these prophets foretold; but you never knew they were there. That is my job. Do you understand clearly?" (See Koresh quotes in web site below.) www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk/shepherdsrod/ I found it interesting that when the Koresh debacle was playing out on TV, the Silver Spring hierarchy was in a panic because the news media came very close to tying this event directly to the SDA church. The leaders bent over backwards to dishonestly claim that Koresh had no connection with the SDA church when that was not true. Koresh's theological pedigree, as well as many of his followers, can be directly traced to the SDA church. This is a historical fact that cannot be denied. But since when do the facts stop our SDA hierarchy from twisting history? In fact, according to the Review, (June issue, p 43.) on the May 2, showing of Jeopardy, Alex Trebek asked this question: "The Davidians are a branch of this religion?" A contestant (correctly as far as Jeopardy was concerned) answered: "What is Seventh-day Adventist" and the show moved on. But apparently the hierarchy protested and was successful in getting Jeopardy to admit that they were wrong (even though they would have been correct had the question been adjusted slightly to say: "The Davidians were primarily comprised of members from what religious group?" Or "from what religious group do the Branch Davidians trace their history?" There is only one answer to this question, and it is the SDA's. And now the hierarchy wants to get more pro-SDA questions on the show to help with their strategic plan for growth at all costs. I can only imagine what dishonest questions the leaders would submit as they try to wave their nominal flag and get more recruits to replace those that have left the dying Adventist cause. I have some of my own questions about SDA's that Mr. Trebeck could use: How about: 1. What famous 19th century cultic denomination, known for knocking on doors today, was co-founded by a Seventh-day Adventist? (What is the JW's!) 2. What 19th century denomination rejected their prophet in 1888 and then exiled her to Australia? (What is the SDA's!) 3. What denomination claims to be Protestant, yet refuses to follow the Reformers fundamental position about the use of the Bible alone to formulate doctrine? (What is the SDA's!) 4. What denomination claims to be Protestant, yet refuses to follow the Reformers position about the definition of the Gospel, opting instead to follow the RCC? (What is the SDA's!) 5. What hierarchical denomination claims to be Protestant, but yet follows the Roman Catholic form of church organization? (What is the SDA's!) 6. What denomination claims to promote the Great Day of Judgment, but instead focuses on a unique doctrine about a secret, private, and personal judgment far out in deep space, beyond the reaches of the Hubble telescope? (What is the SDA's!) 7. What small denomination once led the Country in the promotion of natural health and a vegetarian lifestyle but has now abandoned such teaching? (What is the SDA's!) 8. What Sabbatarian denomination claims to follow and keep the law of 10 Commandments, but in reality practices historical deceit, hides documents in its archives, and routinely publishes misinformation and false church history as well as theology? (What is the SDA's!) 9. What denomination claims to be Protestant, but yet refuses to allow its members freedom of speech, or the right to vote about church policy or theology? (What is the SDA's!) 10. What denomination claims to be the Remnant of Revelation, but refuses to listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Laodicean church in Revelation? (What is the SDA's!) 11. What church recently removed their President for corruption, and then gave him another job as if nothing happened? (What is the SDA's) I could go on, but you get the picture. There are so many good questions about SDA's for Alex. I wonder what the GC list looks like? Much different from mine I presume. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Maggie Bockmann said on Sunday, June 9, 2002: "Ron, I hope you have better luck than I have had getting Tom to answer that question, or even admit that it is an issue." These questions about the IJ and Ellen White have been asked and answered many times, but I will do so again (in another post). But please don't confuse me with Goldstein and the other professional track stars that run from the questions as if there was a gold medal awaiting them. Ron's question is a good one that deserves to be addressed over and over until this IJ trickery has been clearly understood as mythical fraud. Maggie said: "Tom, I just want to add that while I don't think that every one who becomes fixated on getting the world to agree that their explanation of Ellen White is the real one (and that monumental fates hang on their particular chosen issues), is on a slippery slide to Waco, still, countless people have lost their personal bearings obsessing over Ellen White, Vernon Howell and myself included, in my opinion." My personal fixation is not about Ellen White, but rather with the eschatological construct of the Three Angels Messages and with the practical implication of this historic paradigm for those living in the 21st century. This is where the action is for me. Ellen White comprises only a small, but important, part of this eschatological history. Moreover, because so many people have been deliberately mislead about the Adventist Apocalyptic, thanks to the dishonest hierarchical manipulation of Ellen White, her hidden and suppressed story becomes vital to the quest for Adventist Reform. There is an abundance of historical evidence that explains the real Ellen White, but the leaders have played fraudulent games with that information. Once the truth emerges about Ellen White and 1888, the corrupt leaders will be condemned for what they did at Glacier View and what they are doing now. The fact of the matter is that the Adventist Community has lost their historical bearings about the Three A's because the true story about Ellen White has been hidden and covered up. This damage must be exposed and repaired. As for slippery slopes, nothing is more slippery than hiding and destroying rare, historical documents so that Adventist history can be dishonestly revised and changed. Nothing is more calculated to destroy the Advent Movement than being dishonest with the evidence and manipulating the history and the theology of the Three Angels Messages. But the damage has already been done. We are now in a ditch at the bottom of a slippery slope. It is time to get up out of the mud and climb (crawl) to higher ground. IT IS TIME TO REFORM THE SDA CHURCH. Maggie said: "Adventism, by definition, could be said to have narcissistic tendencies, anyway, without a great stretch, I think--the Great Apocalyptic End times center around and depend on....US. That's a heavy trip, and one that vulnerable personalities collapse under with great regularity. But one does not have to be seized by an archetype like David Koresh was to be in deep water, I think." Most every church and cult thinks that they are the center of the universe. The Jews, the Early Christians. Then the RCC, then the Reformer's, and then all kinds of different groups like the Shakers and then the Mormons, the Adventists, then the SDA's, and then the JW's, etc. Even the Islamic fundamentalists say that they represent the best version of truth and that they are superior to all others in the sight of Abraham's God. So your observation about SDA's being self-absorbed is nothing new or unique. What is unique however, is that SDA's, in the 21st century, are sitting on a gold mine of eschatological data that is unparalled in history. IMO, there is a distinct possibility that the SDA's do indeed have the theological pedigree to understand the last days better than all others. So while everyone claims to have the truth, the SDA's may actually have the inside track on truth. But having said that, we must all admit that our leaders have so bungled this prize winning apocalyptic that the hierarchy no longer even understands their own theology. The church in North America, which is the engine that pulls the Adventist global train, has been derailed from the track of truth for years. Goldstein is a perfect example of an SDA leader who fails to comprehend the most basic fundamentals of the Adventist Apocalyptic. He is the hierarchical poster boy for Adventist confusion, stupidity, and theological fraud. But he is not alone in the promotion of these impossible views about the Three Angels Messages. His IJ driven theology is only a reflection of the confused 27 fundamentals and he is but taking orders from his corrupt superiors. But regardless of all this, it is a mistake to dismiss the Three Angels messages because Goldstein and the hierarchy have so badly misunderstood this unique eschatological paradigm. It is a mistake to reject the Adventist Apocalyptic because the SDA's made such a mess of it and hurt so many people in the process. Many former (and present) SDA's need to get over their understandable anger and pain that they have suffered at the hands of an abusive and papal hierarchy. Everyone needs to realize that this eschatological paradigm of the Three A's does not belong to the SDA hierarchy, but to all. Adventism is in the public domain. The truth about the Gospel and eschatology can be discovered by anyone without permission and without the burden of a life long pledge to give the unbiblical tribute of tithe. Everyone needs to look beyond the theological corruption and confusion and try to see what Adventism could become if only it would be true to its Protestant roots and deal honestly with its' own history and apocalyptical destiny. Can you do that Maggie? Can others? Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
I remember asking Dr. Ford for his impression about eschatology in a general sense. He had read most every known source about eschatology that had ever been written, so I wondered what common thread was running through all this data. And he replied that those who studied and wrote about eschatology always viewed themselves as participants in the center of the action. In other words, it is a common and normative phenomenon of eschatology for the reader of Revelation to perceive that the apocalypse was written primarily for them. This remarkable feature is no accident as the apocalyptic was given to inspire faith and hope in every age until the close of time. Maggie said: "You seem very angry, and seem to have something personal against Clifford Goldstein. He seems like the soul of sincerity to me, and I could find no reason to accuse him of dishonesty whatsoever, so I have to ask myself why you would. Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is dishonest?" I have long since recovered from the personal shock of discovering that our SDA leaders had abandoned the Protestant Path back in 1980. Many years ago, I was very angry that our church would so blatantly and knowingly lie about the Gospel, prophecy, theology, and church history. I too naively trusted the leaders and assumed that they were honest and well meaning, and that they truly cared about the Advent Movement. But their actions at Glacier View and afterwards forever shattered those illusions. Like many people, I was outraged about Glacier View. But life goes on. That was almost a quarter of a century ago. Shock, dismay, and anger can only last so long. But I did make a pledge to try and help reverse this scandalous treachery and to try and set the record straight when the circumstances warranted. That time seems to have arrived. So this is not about anger, but about doing what is right and doing what has to be done. I have said many times that I personally like Clifford. I like his energy and his competitive spirit. And I also happen to agree with him on a number of important eschatological points. My comments directed to him are NOT personal whatsoever. Rather they are professional and theological in nature. They are directed to the unbiblical hierarchal system of which he is a very visible part. (FYI, unlike most of us on the Forums, I have met face to face with Clifford, and he would agree with this assessment that I am not personally mad at him as you incorrectly assume. Honest!) As for his sincerity, he may be the most sincere person on the planet. So what? Sincerity is not a substitute for truth. More often than not, sincerity is a stumbling block to the discovery of truth. So whether he is sincere or not is irrelevant to me. All I can deal with is the facts under discussion. And it is a fact that Mr. Goldstein's lynchpin position about the IJ and the 1st Angels Message has been totally and forever annihilated. In fact, Goldstein's Glacier View position has been so publicly destroyed online at Atoday and now on Atomorrow that he has not been able to defend it in the least. Not only did he publicly fail to sustain his point, he RAN AWAY in humiliation and disgrace, claiming that in a year he would respond with a revision of 1844 Made Simple! What a joke! So it is at this point that the honesty issue comes into play. It is very dishonest for a published author, who happens to be a paid apologist for the hierarchy, to run away from public questions about his position? What could he be hiding from? Why run away if not guilty? Goldstein's' behavior is that of a guilty and dishonest man. In addition, it is also very dishonest to claim that a position is true, when there is no evidence whatsoever for such a claim, and mountains of evidence refuting the position in question. Business people, like accountants and CEO's for example, go to jail for such fraud. Why should the religious professionals be allowed to double-talk and promote false information to an unsuspecting public? Why should those who claim to follow Jesus be allowed to hoodwink their constituents and scam them? Church officials need to be held accountable for their theological positions--at least by the members if no one else. The SDA leaders have no license from God, or anyone else, to mislead, lie, steal, and deceive. Let's be clear shall we? I am charging Mr. Goldstein with the promotion of theological and historical fraud. There is no need to beat around the bush and soft peddle this awful situation. I can prove such an indictment in the court of public opinion. That is why I challenged him in public. And that is why he ran away. Those who know Adventist history and theology cannot come to his aid because they know that he is wrong. No one from the academic world, or from the TSDA's, or even from the hierarchy with all its vast resources, can lend him a hand because he has been caught peddling the same theological fraud that made 1888 and Glacier View historic crime scenes. If at any time he wants to refute my charge, I will be glad to have a public discussion for all to see and decide for themselves. But he knows better. He knows that he has been caught, and so too does the rest of the hierarchy. That is why they cannot respond to this online campaign for Adventist Reform, except to shut down one web site after another. The fact of the matter is that while you "could find no reason to accuse Goldstein of dishonesty whatsoever" I have a long list of theological falsehoods from his pen that give rise to that charge. Mr. Goldstein is a professional apologist, a well-known SDA theological writer who claims to follow the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, the Reformer's, and the Adventist Pioneers, including Ellen White. Such a claim deserves serious examination and places him in a position of great responsibility to tell the truth and to deal honestly with these religious issues in a manner that would please both heaven and earth. But he has failed to tell the truth. He has failed to honestly deal with the issues and the facts of history. He has misrepresented Jesus, the Apostles, the Reformer's, and the Adventist Pioneers. He has promoted theological positions as if Ellen White would support them, when the opposite is true. And when confronted with these charges and the accompanying evidence, he runs away. Does this sound like the behavior of an honest man? Does this behavior reflect truth, candor, and justice? Hardly! So while you can apparently excuse such fraud, I guess because Goldstein appears to be sincere to you, I cannot and will not. If he is sincere, he is still wrong. The IJ is a false doctrine that is against the Gospel as well as against the facts and the theology of Adventist history and eschatology. It cannot be supported by Ellen White or any other Adventist Pioneer as Goldstein erroneously and falsely claims. And we are not talking harmless error. This hierarchical fraud is damaging the reputation of Ellen White, and destroying the credibility of the entire Advent Movement. Perhaps removing the only eschatological hope that could very well turn out to be the heavenly exit strategy for the Remnant. So while the stakes are high, and the rhetoric at times sharp, we shall avoid acting out of justifiable anger and remain focused on the strategic objectives of Adventist Reform in a calm and determined manner. Maggie said: "While your past is absolutely none of my business, I think the anger and accusations you put forth on this forum are grist for the discussion mill." If I am correct about 1844, 1888, 1980, Ellen White, NT Tithe, and the Three Angels messages, then this is far more than grist for discussion. Rather, it is a blueprint for Adventist Reform. I hope you can understand the difference? And forget this idea about anger, which is not a factor whatsoever. However, the discussion with Goldstein was not meant to be lukewarm. Rather, it was designed to be HOT and full of sparks and heat. Have you never read? Rev. 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. Heaven is tired of smooth, polite, and trite talk. The Word is calling for the Remnant to turn up the heat and take the Gospel far more seriously. Goldstein just happened to be on the wrong side of the argument and consequently he was burned. Ouch! Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Look at it like this; do you think that those who play hard (as in hot, not cold) in a racquetball game are doing so because they are angry with their opponent? Do you think those that play hard and with passion at Basketball or football are angry? Not at all. When the game is over, the true competitors wipe their sweat off and shake hands and say good game. There are no grudges regardless of who wins. Must one be angry to play the game of life with intensity and drive? Hardly. There is a natural competitive passion that is often exhibited that should not be confused with anger. For me, I approach a debate with Goldstein like a racquetball game with a loud mouth hot shot. I will play hard to win, and relish the challenge, win or lose. But as you know, Goldstein refuses to enter the court for fear of losing. But he still claims to be undefeated. Something is very wrong with this picture isn't it? But regardless of Goldstein's cowardice and false bravado, I have no anger towards him whatsoever. In fact, I feel sorry for him and hope that he will wake up and get real. I am sure he is trying to figure this all out? After all, who likes to be publicly humiliated and reduced to playing the role of a theological coward? But a church apologist, like Goldstein can't really run away and hide. The longer he dodges the issues, the less credibility he has. But he can't run forever. So, when we tangle over theology in public, the rules of the game dictate my actions and I will play by the rules and destroy his false positions in the process. Anger plays no role. But accusations do. And I say again that Goldstein is promoting theological fraud and dishonest church history. And I dare him to defend Glacier View in a public discussion with me any time anywhere. I have made that challenge to him before, and he has been unable to respond. Such an inability to defend his position speaks volumes doesn't it? It should. Of course Goldstein, or Bill Johnsson, or whoever is welcome at any time to accept my challenge to discuss the issues as well. But we all know that these frauds would rather censor than discuss. This is because they are very wrong about many things and they have been caught. The great SDA cover-up is just as much of a scandal as the one at the other hierarchy (RCC) that we see on the news. But few know about it right now. That is one major difference. But in time, all will know that SDA's have a dark secret hidden within their unbiblical hierarchy as well. At least the SDA's have a scandal about theology instead of criminal behavior that would make the heathen blush. How proud we should be! We have a scandal about theology and about the Gospel, not about perversion and gross sexual abuse. How proud heaven must be? Hubert F. Sturges said on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - "Maggie, (as to your comment about) Koresh; Of course, there is truth in what you say. I just have a hard time applying it to the churches I have been a member of. The main problem I have noted is lack of interest, lack of commitment. Parents not making the sacrifice to send children to church school. Families using Sabbath for a vacation day, rather than going to church. And a dangerous lack of Bible knowledge. You, of course, can add to list." This is what I was saying about the eschatological vacuum. I warned the leaders, in writing, years ago about this potential state of affairs. But their obsession with this IJ fraud has stopped the church from telling the truth about the Bible and the Gospel, and Adventist history. And this cover-up has led to a disaster that can only be stopped by a return to the Protestant Path and by fully embracing the genuine version of the Three Angels messages. The fact of the matter is that Adventism is dying in front of our eyes. Koresh was but one manifestation of many. And of course, our leaders denied the truth that Koresh came directly from the SDA's and so too did the Branch Davidians. Too bad our leaders failed to wake up after this tragedy and start correcting their own confused eschatology. But no chance. Managing a modern church is all about Public Relations and press releases, the truth has nothing to do with anything as far as the SDA hierarchy is concerned. Growth, not truth, is what really matters. Hub said: "The pastors I see, are trying to correct these problems." What nonsense. No SDA pastors today have any authority, much less the inclination, to correct dishonest and false Adventist theology. No Pastor can dare speak out about Glacier View or publicly defend Dr. Ford. No pastor can dare stand up in the pulpit and tell the truth about church organization and tell the truth about this scandalous and fraudulent doctrine called NT Tithe. No pastor has any chance of making any meaningful reforms as you claim. So stop with this utter nonsense. You are insulting our intelligence as well as ignoring the many brave and honest SDA Pastors who quit or were fired because of Glacier View. Those honest guys who stood up, like my friend from CUC Bob Brown, who told his conference president that he supported Dr. Ford and the Gospel and that he did not want to dishonestly pretend otherwise as his superiors had instructed. Most of the honest Protestant pastors have left the SDA ministry long ago. Many others should have. And many of those who stayed, wished they could escape from their unsatisfying church employment. IMO, many of those pastors that are left are not much good to anyone but the hierarchy. They are full of theological double-talk that is designed to control and manipulate. There is no quest for truth or any eschatological ambition to "finish the work." SDA pastors today are men, for the most part, who have compromised the Gospel and the Protestant faith for so long that they have ceased to become effective. They are a big part of the Adventist problem, not the solution. Most all SDA Pastors reek with cognitive dissonance as they try to promote a false, unbiblical, and hybrid brand of modern Adventism that contains large elements of Catholic doctrine combined with some Old Covenant Jewish and Protestant teaching to produce an abomination of false and deceitful religion. While Protestants correctly see the Priests of that other hierarchy as complete religious frauds and cultic charlatans, the SDA Pastors, which are the parallel of the RC priests, are promoting their own brand of twisted fraud and cultic trickery. Our own little hierarchy has followed the papacy in a number of key areas. And in spite of the fact that the SDA church leaders are Sabbatarian and heterosexual, they are actually functioning as a shadow version of the Papal enemy it once stalked. Talk about being deceived? This is absolutely amazing! Who knew that the SDA's have adopted some of the fundamental doctrines of the RCC! Today, SDA's do not represent Protestant truth. Rather, they represent false religion that pretends to follow the law and accept the Gospel, as well as the hermeneutic of the Apostles, Reformers, and Historic Adventists. But it is all a sham. SDA's don't keep the law any better than the Catholics do. They don't understand the Gospel any better either. Nor do the scriptures have any real authority or power for Adventists versus Catholics. Both hierarchies have other sources for doctrine that are more authoritative then the Word. Thanks to our treacherous leaders, SDA's have become Seventh-day Catholics. We too have followed the BEAST POWER, like all others. Rev. 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; Who knew that SDA's would be included in that prophecy? Surprise! Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Hub said: "Would the situation be different if we "reformed our doctrines?" Well, I don't know. We HAVE reformed our music, and now every Sabbath we get several new songs that are hard to sing. I suspect that most people know little about our doctrines as they are and have a hazy understanding of them." The problem is well beyond "music" and "hazy" doctrines. In fact, the problem is that the SDA church has been teaching a false version of the Three Angels Messages, including a false Gospel and a false judgment and a false doctrine called NT Tithe that supports an organizational system that copies Rome instead of the New Testament church model. Do you understand this? The leaders have also put false words in Ellen White's mouth so that they could cover up 1888 and get away with Glacier View. In addition, the leaders have ruined the health message at a time when it has never been more popular. I could go on a long rant here, but you get the point that it is time to move beyond the trite and trivial and cut to the bottom line. With such doctrinal incompetence and corruption, how can Adventism hope to figure out the future and warn the world? How can the Three Angels messages survive the present self-destruction and complete their mission? Hub said: "EGW makes it clear what we need -- we must each one, earnestly, pray for the outpouring of The Holy Spirit. And when we make that prayer, we maybe surprised, even dismayed sometimes, when we see what happens. e.g. He may do a little housecleaning in the church!!" As usual, those who support the IJ never seem to understand the problem or comprehend the solution. They talk in religious sound bites and use Ellen White as a substitute for scripture, claiming that if we would only follow her supposedly "clear" advice we would be surprised by some magical result. But Ellen White would NOT agree with your above assessment, and neither does the scripture. In fact, the Apostle John makes "it clear what we need," and it is NOT the "outpouring of The Holy Spirit" as you claim, even though such a statement sounds so religious and so correct. Does the Laodicean message say that the church should pray for the Holy Spirit as you suggest? Or does it say that the last church should wake up, REPENT and procure the Gospel? I think you know the answer? Rev. 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Rev. 3:17 Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Rev. 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. The fact of the matter is that the Spirit pictures the Remnant as being wretched and blind sinners totally bereft of the Gospel and that is why they must REPENT WITH ZEAL. But wait a minute, our leaders don't like to REPENT, nor do they intend to do any such thing. The SDA leaders rejected the Gospel in 1888 and they rejected it again in 1980. So now what do we do now? Pray for the Holy Spirit and keep on promoting a false Gospel and a fraudulent version of the Three Angels Messages? Why pay attention to the scripture and repent when rebellion and fraud is more convenient? Forget such nonsense. Pray for repentance. Pray for the return of the Gospel. Pray for the return of the authentic and genuine Three Angels Messages and the Protestant doctrinal Pillars they contain. Pray that the church can break free from the Glacier View spell that will be the doom of this denomination unless there is true repentance and doctrinal reformation. IT IS TIME TO REFORM THE SDA CHURCH. The church needs theological and organizational Reform from top to bottom. The 27 fundamentals are full of error and deceit. The system is corrupt beyond minor repair. IT IS TIME TO REFORM THE SDA CHURCH. The Gospel has been rejected by the SDA leaders in both 1888 and 1980 and it is time to reverse this travesty and bring the Gospel, the # 1 Pillar of the Adventist Apocalyptic, back into the paradigm, along with the # 2 Pillar which is the great Judgment Day, not this silly and secret outer space version called the IJ. Away with the fraudulent Gospel and this phony IJ nonsense. The leaders have hijacked the Advent movement and turned it into their own personal plaything. So instead of a "little housecleaning," the church needs a major overhaul that will dismantle the hierarchy and give the churches back to the local members so that they can have the necessary resources to function like the NT model was intended. I suggest that you stop misusing Ellen White in a false manner as you just did and apply the proper scripture to this situation. If you do this, you will have to change your advice about prayer, and specifically pray for CORPORATE REPENTANCE and specifically pray for the return of the GOSPEL, and for HONESTY and for an end to this theological cover-up that has so confused this movement that few, especially the leaders, even know the fundamentals of Historic Adventism or of the Protestant Movement. Time to get real. Time for Reform. Time to pay attention to scripture. Time for our leaders, like Goldstein, and Bill Johnsson, and others to REPENT for the great damage they have done to the Adventist Movement. Continued... | ||
| Tom Norris (Tnorris) |
Maggie Bockmann said on Monday, June 10, 2002: "I have known a number of people on the 'fringes of the bell curve,' like myself and DK, who have gone over the edge on EGW matters. This was not at all unusual several decades ago (in my experience), as it may be now, and in your whole experience." Mags you are correct. The church was infected with a false and cultic version of the Three A's back then. The leaders were promoting Ellen White as if she were still alive in the GC basement and telling everybody to prepare for the IJ. But she was not. Rather, it was a small group of men who dishonestly used her to turn SDA's into cultic legalists. But she would have NEVER allowed that if she had been alive. You should be the one who is mad! You were badly tricked and abused and you have the right to demand why your church would put you, or anyone else, through such unnecessary hell. If what I am telling you about 1844,1888, Ellen White, and NT Tithe is true, then you have the right to be outraged at those dishonest and despotic leaders who made your life, and the lives of so many others, a religious nightmare. Shame on the White Estate and the Review and the whole bunch of liars who have turned Ellen White into something she never was, so that they could control the people and build up a hierarchy in order to get rich and powerful. Shame on our leaders who have rejected the Protestant Path and rebelled against the Three Angels Messages. If Ellen White had any say in the matter, she would have NEVER allowed the leaders to hide and destroy rare church documents from the 1888 period so that the leaders could rewrite history in order to better serve their nefarious purposes. Do not blame Ellen White for what others did in her name. And for heaven's sake, get this idea out of your head that Ellen White promoted this Glacier View doctrine about the IJ being the foundation of the Three Angels Messages. Ellen White NEVER took such an absurd position. It is a TOTAL fabrication. She would NEVER have supported those legalists who rejected the Gospel and put words in her mouth to cover their sin. She would have stood by the side of Dr. Ford, just like she did with Waggoner. The evidence is clear about this. The real Ellen Whites has been hidden from the people. The leaders have lied and tricked us every one. Better to get mad at those who did this then carp about how bad Ellen White was and how bad Adventism has been to everyone. Rather, it is time to demand that the church come clean and open the vaults and repent for how badly they have treated the Gospel, Ellen White and all of us. Maggie said: "They are people like me, who let my children cry for supper, but wouldn't give it to them because Ellen White said two meals a day are better for us. Yes, I know, she made moderate statements in other places, but it's very difficult to sort through it all, especially when you are very literal minded, and you don't feel supported in thinking for yourself, and I suspect one lifetime is not enough for some of us to accomplish this!" Maggie, I knew of many people who fit this cultic profile. All SDA's were grossly misled by the leaders about many things. So many people trusted what the leaders said, and trusted what they said Ellen White said. But in hindsight, much of it was utter cultic nonsense and historical fraud. Unfortunately, the leaders covered up 1888 and hid this emancipating Gospel debate, which would have led the Advent Community down a different, and much happier, path in the 20th century. Pity. Today, the leaders will not take responsibility for their evil deeds and repent. They are still hiding the truth about the aborted attempt at Gospel Reform in 1888 that resulted in the exile of Ellen White to Australia. They have no intention of admitting guilt about 1888 or 1980. Nor will they accept the Gospel today. They must think that they are above the clear command of scripture for the last church to repent. How else can one explain their behavior? This is madness! The SDA leaders are responsible for so much confusion and pain over the years that I would hate to be in their shoes on the Judgment Day. There is no excuse for what they have done or what they are doing now. They are just as duplicitous now as back in the 20th century, but they have just been forced to moderate their fraud in minor ways. But regardless, they will never admit to being wrong then or now. The word REPENT is not in their vocabulary. So they will seal their own fate. Hierarchical Adventism is following in the footsteps of both the Jews and the RCC. This is not good. Maggie said: "We have a God-sized problem (as Sorensensen says) on our hands, and we need a God-sized solution." The ONLY solution to save the Adventist Apocalyptic is to return to the authentic Protestant teaching of the Three Angels Messages and the doctrinal Pillars that they contain. Because the Gospel and the Judgment are the first two doctrinal Pillars within the 1st Angels message, the return of Dr. Ford will be the official sign that this church is serious about the Three Angels Messages and the completion of the Protestant paradigm. To date the leaders refuse to show any positive signs that would indicate that they understand the critical need for Gospel Reform or that they intend to listen to the Laodicean Message. But we will put out the information and do our best to clearly inform the Adventist Community about all this theological corruption so that the members can clearly understand the issues for themselves. The days of the Goldstein's tricking people by the hundred's is gone as these rascals will be exposed to the world as frauds. Then the people who are true at heart can move forward without those, like Goldstein, who are paid to love what is false and embrace what is untrue. The Advent Movement would do well to move forward and leave these dishonest leaders behind. This is how paradigm shifts occur within the Adventism, and no doubt this is how things will play out. But in the meantime, everyone needs to be prepared to acknowledge error and admit doctrinal mistakes. The days of pretending are over. It is time to tell the truth and shake Adventism until all the doctrinal error and theological corruption is repented of and removed from the church. Such a Protestant like reformation will pave the way for a return of the genuine Three Angels Messages. Moreover, such a return to historic Adventism will set the stage for the development of the Fourth Angels Message found in Rev 18. THIS is the last Adventist message that precedes the great time of trouble. This is where the church needs to be today. This is the challenge for Adventists today. Can the church break free from hierarchical apostasy so that it can move forward within prophetic history? This is the question. The Adventist Apocalyptic is still the most powerful eschatological paradigm within Christianity. Do not underestimate this marvelous paradigm because of the present mismanagement and fraud. The best of Adventism is yet to come! It is time to wake up and Reform Adventism. This is the primary point that all should understand and agree upon. Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform | ||
| J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) |
ROFL.....Tom, you really continue to make yourself appear rather silly in your constant references to Cliff (I really should "BLEEP" you as you've been told many times that it's very TIRING to keep beating up on him individually). The point is, that you offer a remarkable and truthful rendition of events as outlined above. But Cliff is only ONE of many, many, many SDA apologist. Why not likewise gang up on Wallenkempt, Douglass, Maxwell, and a host of other SDA apologist who share Cliff's opinions and have likewise made a living writing books? | ||
| J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) |
Maggs re: "I would dearly love to check myself into Weimar, or one of the other lovely places the independent ministries operate, for a month or so! Yummy food, interesting classes, nice people, long walks, loving attention--delicious!" WHERE did you get THAT idea? At Yucci Pines, you can PAY them $400 a week, for the "pleasure" of hoeing their carrot crop, out in the HOT sun! (dressed in a very "modest" LONG sleeved [and HOT]. Even Dr.s Agatha and Calvin’s daughter eventually ESCAPED THAT NUTTY atmosphere! (have you ever read Pat Darnell's Story "All Dressed up, and Nowhere to Go" web site of her experience with those NUTS?), Yeah, my brother-in-law, sorta got fed up with my "zealot" sister.....and having to pay for the pleasure of her hoeing their carrot crop! A cousin-in-law (is there such a thing?), is a physician with one of those places......now is finding out, that he has to "moonlight" downtown, simply to support his family....after providing them with his Medical Services for a "sacrificial" $600 a month. Another friend of mine....finally found the light about Dr's Calvin and Agatha....when she needed an operation....after likewise providing them with "sacrificial" Medical Services for several years...yet they couldn't provide her with Medical Insurance..or pay for a necessary operation she required. Oh, you might turn out more "Healthy" Maggs, eating their raw turnips...but to pay $400 a week for the privilege? Hmmmmmm, you can get $6 an hour around here hoeing cotton, and they even put a portable potty out in the fields....indeed you can probably bring along your own "Yummy" raw carrots and turnips! Hubb: I'm talking about those "self supporting work" institutions/ministries in the "south"...not Weimar Institute, which has a better reputation. | ||
| Wayne E. Willey (Pwwilley) |
Salaries have apparently increased dramatically in the self-supporting institutions in the South. In 1973, on a vacation tour through the South, we visited some friends at Wildwood Institute. This ordained minister, his wife and their two children were provided and house and a subsistence "salary" of $ 80/month from Wildwood, plus donations from family and friends. Wildwood was charging the usual and customary rate of $ 3,000/month for residents in the Wildwood "sanitarium" at the time. W.D. Frazee and the other administrators at Wildwood argued that this level of sacrifice among their employees was necessary in order to support the Wildwood "missionary" program in other countries. The founders/managers of these institutions used guilt to keep their employees under their dictatorial control. The "conditioning" programs have provided a rich source of income for the so-called "self-supporting institutions". I believe many of the founders/managers of these institutions will be condemned in the judgement and lost eternally because of the unfair way they have treated their employees. | ||
| Bill Sorenson (Billsorensen) |
By J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:18 am: ROFL.....Tom, you really continue to make yourself appear rather silly in your constant references to Cliff (I really should "BLEEP" you as you've been told many times that it's very TIRING to keep beating up on him individually). The point is, that you offer a remarkable and truthful rendition of events as outlined above. But Cliff is only ONE of many, many, many SDA apologist. Why not likewise gang up on Wallenkempt, Douglass, Maxwell, and a host of other SDA apologist who share Cliff's opinions and have likewise made a living writing books?" JR....Tom doesn't have a clue of how the law and gospel harmonize. He obviously fails to see the parallel and contrast between the two. He and Dr. Ford get an "F" in theology. But one important point must not be overlooked in this scenerio. Tom is a perfect example of the Dr. Ford theology and its application. He may be somewhat radical in the opinion of some on this forum, but that is because he is more zealous than the rest of you and takes the Ford theology to its logical conclusion. In this, he was more like Brinsmead who also embraced the Ford theology in principle and carried it to its logical end. This is why he gave up the Sabbath and eventually the bible. And so will all who continue to embrace the false doctrine Dr. Ford is teaching. A failure to understand the 2nd and third use of the law in our historic Protestant confessions of faith will always lead to apostacy. Those who abandon 1844 and the investigative judgment must necessarily eventually opt for some form of spiritualism which will take them back to Rome. Seventh-day Adventism as presented by EGW in the Great Controversy is the only logical and final conclusion to true bible Protestantism. Legalist who have simply opted for antinomianism are not enlightened in the true gospel. Man would rather change the law than be changed himself. False theories always lead to a false experience. "Error is never harmless." "Error never sanctifies." "Truth is more precious than all besides." EGW Sorensen |
