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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene Longfellow said:

I need imput from you guys and I don't know where to put this thread so here goes.

My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list( we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over.. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up. I was shocked. I have been a member of this little church for 27 years and have never, never seen that happen.

I, along with a couple of other people, were furious. I have been in countless churches over a 65 year period and NEVER has that requirment been requested. Even the big LLU church with it's 4,000 members has never pushed such a rule.

I felt it was insulting and hurtful and exempted a couple of wonderful elders from continuing office. I'm sure the pastor has an agenda but that's not the way to handle it in my opinion.

Tell me what you think and what you suggest I can do about it. Or should I do nothing.

I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct.number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should. But I guess I won't do that.

Do you approve of his action. Am I overreacting?
Any thoughts or suggestions?

renie
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J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal)
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Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

re:"I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct.number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should."

IMO, that's the one thing you should do!

FWIW, on the Review net site tonight, there was an article about "church hopping" Is there any other SDA church with-in driving distance? Other then having to drive over the pass to Bozeman?
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That church's action is utterly reprehensible and despicable and should NEVER have occurred!!!

The tithe payers should ONLY be known by the treasurer, and it should stay with her. Never, should anyone, including the pastor, have any information about tithe-payers.

A friend was treasurer of a large church and was asked by a member for information on who were paying tithe, and she adamantly refused to give any such information. She eventually resigned as she was too pressured.

I'm not sure what the church manual policy is, but I never attend or be a member of such a church. Most pastors have no interest in such information and any pastor who does, is worse than weird and should be reported the the conference, and I would be the one reporting.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

JR and Elaine....thanks so much for sharing your insights with me.

JR. the only other church is in Big Timber which is 45 miles away and is pastored by the same pastor. That won't work.

Elaine....What I think I will do, along with two other members, is to go to the church board and share my concerns with them. Hopefully, I can get them to vote on a resolution that will prohibit tithe payers names from ever being revealed and used as clout again.. If that doesn't work , I will take your suggestion, Elaine, and go to the conference president. I'm comforted in knowing that both of you feel as I do that what happened is disgusting and hurtful.

Thanks for your impute.

renie
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J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal)
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Posted on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Awe, "Big Timber."

We pulled into the rest area, there one night back in 1991. I hadn't been to the Pac NW since I was a little kid. The fresh smell of the pine trees........awe......I could live up your way forever!
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, let us know how things turn out. If good folks like you don't speak up, what is to prevent such things happening there or elsewhere?

Remember: When your questions cannot be properly addressed, keep going till you get to the top!
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list( we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over.. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up.

I just read through the manual chapters on the nominating committee as well as the Gospel finance and I don't see anything that would back up his bringing in tithe statements and saying that only those people are eligible.

Here is a link to the manual, you can't download the one on the official Adventist site it has not worked for months.

http://www.ciasda.org/?download=Seventh-day-Adventist-Church-Manual-17th-edition.pdf

From the chapter on finance:
Tithing—a Scriptural Obligation—Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.
“Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Mal. 3:10).


You could ask the Pastor for any scriptural reference that the storehouse is the Adventist church. If he can't do that and he can't inform him that God has multiple methods of working and that to assume that only tithe to the SDA church is acceptable is to deny the scriptural authority just as his assumption to bring in the tithe issue is also unscriptural, if he says it is scriptural ask him for scriptures.

If he insists upon using EGW quotes ask him do we follow the Bible or the writing of Ellen White. If he says that Ellen White is a continuing source of truth, inform him that Ellen White is not above the Bible and that Ellen White is tested by the Bible, so on this issue he needs to demonstrate from the Bible that the Payment of title to the Adventist church is necessary to be eligible to serve in leadership positions in the Adventist church.

The fact is you cannot do anything here unless you are willing to stand up against the Pastor's abuse. So get a few like minded members together and sit down with the pastor.

If not things will only get worse.
New Protestants.com
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for the good advice and encouragement.

Thanks Bob for your impute too. I will use what you have dug up to take to the board meeting.

If I can't get anything done there, I will go to the conference president.

I'll let you guys know how things go. The board usually meets the second Monday of the month.

renie
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is my first post and I hope that you all are not too hard on me, but tithing is a subject that is close to my heart.

For many years I returned a faithful "modified" tithe. What is a modified tithe? That is what Adventism and many other churches teach. In no way is it scriptural.

First of all it is part of the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant. No where in the New Covenant is there a requirement to pay tithe. Tithe was never paid in shekels anyway. It was paid in animals and produce. If Israelites didn't raise crops or animals they simply didn't pay tithe, so all Israelites didn't pay it. Churches have taken the old system, modified it and are using it as a tool to extract money from the faithful. Ellen White's Angel had it wrong. Her visions somehow got crossed up in her brain and the flock has not bothered to seek the truth about the matter. Well, maybe some have because only 25-30% of Adventists are tithe payers.

If you really want to know how to give to further the Gospel read chapters 8 and 9 of 2 Corinthians.

Irene, take this to the church board and ask them to do a study on tithing. If they are honest they will stop asking the flock to pat it. That will cause the GC to rumble.

My bobservation for today. Bob}
Where there is life there is hope.
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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene said: My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list (we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up.

The modern SDA church is a hierarchal organization. This means that those at the top have doctrinal authority and control of all others. This is how the RCC is organized, which is totally against the Gospel, but yet the SDA's have copied this great error.

Although Rome claims their authority resides in the doctrine of apostolic succession, the SDA's base their authority on the Old Covenant doctrine of Tithe. Both positions are utterly worthless, absurd, and wrong. Apostolic Succession is just as much of a fraud as Tithe paying in the church. They are both great myth and error.

The SDA's are very wrong to pretend that their Denominational headquarters is anything like the Jewish Temple or that tithe paying is a sacred duty for the church. There was no tithing in the apostolic church anymore than there was Sunday Worship. Moreover, the apostles never owned or controlled any of the local churches.

The SDA's are being downright dishonest and incompetent to teach that the apostles support this outrageous myth, which they do not. But the SDA's care far more about money than truth. So that is the end of the matter for them. Money trumps truth for the SDA's.

The fact of the matter is that there is no such doctrine as NT tithe. It does not exist as a valid doctrine for the church. It is a religious scam that is meant to control both the mind and the bank accounts of those gullible enough to fall for it. The SDA leaders should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this sinful and wicked fraud, and the people who have been fooled by such propaganda should wake up and stop allowing such abuse,

Irene said: I was shocked. I have been a member of this little church for 27 years and have never, never seen that happen.

Many are shocked when they figure out that the SDA church is really a hierarchical paradigm that acts more like Rome than anything Protestant. Few understand that the Denomination owns everything in their local church, all the property and fixtures, even down to the songbooks and pencils in the pews. Even though the people paid for their churches, it is all owned and controlled by a handful of men who claim to have spiritual authority over everyone. And if you disagree with any doctrine or policy, you can leave the premises, because the hierarchy owns and controls everything by design. This is how they control the church.

Only those SDA's that acknowledge the spiritual authority and doctrines of their leaders, which is symbolized by the payment of tithe to them, are allowed to participate in any church office. All others are pushed aside, regardless of their spiritual gifts. Thus, tithe paying becomes a loyalty test for all in the SDA church. It is the method to control the church, including the pastors, and empower the hierarchy.

Irene said: I, along with a couple of other people, were furious. I have been in countless churches over a 65 year period and NEVER has that requirement been requested. Even the big LLU church with it's 4,000 members has never pushed such a rule.

The tithe has always been used as a method to control the modern SDA church. Unless one has agreed to support both the church and its doctrines, as evidenced by regular tithe paying, they are not allowed to work for the church, or to hold any office in the local church. Period.

This rule has always been enforced. It's just that a wise pastor does it quietly, in order to keep people--like you-- from realizing that the SDA church is not being managed by Gospel principles. So you are shocked at something that has been going on for a long time.

The Pastors have access to all the records and thus they know who is paying tithe, and who supports what doctrines. Thus they manipulate things accordingly in order to keep control. The SDA church is one of the most controlled and micro managed of all denominations, and tithe is one of their secrets to control the church. (Which is why so many have left over the years…)

So don't think that this rule in the church manual does not mean what it says, or that it is not enforced. It is how the game is played in the SDA church, and how it has always been played in the 20th century. In fact, this is why AT Jones refused to remain an SDA. He was furious that the church developed such a hierarchal form of government, which he knew was wrong. He refused to support such a RC system. All SDA's should follow AT Jones in this regard.

Irene said: I felt it was insulting and hurtful and exempted a couple of wonderful elders from continuing office. I'm sure the pastor has an agenda but that's not the way to handle it in my opinion.

Wolves might seem nice from a distance, but they will bite and devour any lamb that gets in their way. No one should be surprised at such a natural reaction. All pastors are part of the hierarchy and controlled by the hierarchy and paid by the hierarchy from the tithe. So this false doctrine is the basis for every pastor's existence. Should they question or doubt it, they will be terminated.

Besides, false doctrine hurts people and destroys the truth of the Gospel. The only way for any Pastor to deal with such false doctrine is to repudiate it. But you see, the Pastors are in on this scam. This is how they get paid. So they are even guiltier because they promote this fraud, even as they are forced to embrace it or they will be throne out the door.

So speaking with your pastor is going to be a useless endeavor. You may as well ask the Pope to become a Lutheran!

No wonder the LM has no exclusion for the SDA's. No wonder that Jesus calls them wretched, blind, and naked. They are far worse than anyone imagined.

The only way to handle tithe in the SDA church is to protest and repudiate it. That is all that anyone can do with such false, anti-Gospel myths that are destroying the Advent Movement. No one should pay tithe to the SDA's or anyone else. It is false doctrine. Period.

Irene asked: Tell me what you think and what you suggest I can do about it. Or should I do nothing.

I would ask the Pastor to show me where the apostles teach that tithe is to be practiced by the church. And if he can't do this, and he can't, then why would anyone become an indentured servant to the SDA church?

Why would anyone want to follow this false doctrine so that the corrupt wolves in Silver Spring can persecute those like Dr. Ford who teach the Gospel correctly? Why?

I used to challenge people in my local church to find any Christian in the NT paying tithe, or collecting tithe, or spending tithe, etc. I would offer them $1,000 if they could find such a passage in the NT.

They would always laugh and thank me for the money, because they were certain that they would win this simple Bible challenge. Of course the next week in church, they would look perplexed, and admit that this was harder than it sounded. As time went on, no one could ever find even one example of any Christian, much less an apostle, practicing or promoting tithe in the church.

But yet all SDA's have been taught that the apostolic church practiced tithing --and that is why it must be followed today. But this assumption is false. The apostolic church repudiated tithe, which is the opposite of embracing it.

It is a serious error to embrace false doctrine. And NT tithe paying is a very stupid error that hurts many people. It also empowers a religious hierarchy to play God and speak like a beast power. Which is what happened at Glacier View. Those that gathered there to review doctrine did so at the pleasure of the hierarchy. The congregation was only acting as a "consultant" to those that controlled the church. Thus the leaders made it clear that they were going to do what they wanted to do, and the voice of the people did not matter.

This is worst thing about tithe; it creates a corrupt hierarchy to rule over and abuse the people. This is what has happened to the SDA's. Unless they repudiate tithe, they will never find or understand the Gospel.

Irene said: I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct. number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should. But I guess I won't do that.

Don't think that the tithe paying of the pastors is not investigated by the conference. Their superiors make certain that they are setting a good example, even as they are strictly required to pay tithe and promote tithe or lose their jobs. Those that protest, like some have done, are quickly silenced and removed for fear that the people might catch on.

Irene asked: Do you approve of his action. Am I overreacting?
Any thoughts or suggestions?

The SDA Community should demand a reformation in the church. Everyone should demand truthful doctrines or none at all. This means that the IJ must go, and so too tithe. And there is a long list of other false doctrines that must also be replaced with truth. In fact, the SDA's are so off base that they don't even know how to observe the Lord's Supper.

So you are not overreacting. When it comes to false doctrine, it must all be repudiated in a very public manner. No one that embraces the Gospel correctly can pay tithe to anyone. Period.

If all SDA's refused to support the hierarchy with their money, reformation would have to take place. But generations of propaganda is hard to dismiss. At this point, you could not pay me to pay tithe. It is a disgusting and dangerous doctrine that empowers wolves to control the church.

J. R. Layman said: FWIW, on the Review net site tonight, there was an article about "church hopping" Is there any other SDA church with-in driving distance? Other then having to drive over the pass to Bozeman?

All SDA churches are full of false doctrine. While some may be friendlier or have better potlucks, etc, they are all based on one false doctrine after another, tithe just being one of many.

continued
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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine Nelson said: That church's action is utterly reprehensible and despicable and should NEVER have occurred!!!

Why do you think there are church records? Why do you think the SDA church is set up the way it is? The present system is set up to control the members, empower the leaders, and enrich the organization. Tithe is one of the fundamental doctrines that cannot be challenged in the SDA church. It proves that the SDA's are locked into an Old Covenant mind set.

Elaine said: The tithe payers should ONLY be known by the treasurer, and it should stay with her. Never, should anyone, including the pastor, have any information about tithe-payers.

The Pastor is in full charge of the local church, which is owned by the hierarchy--not the members. Thus all the records belong to those that own the church, and so too does the money, and the property. The members have no say in any of this. They are just pawns that pay to be abused and misled.

Elaine said: A friend was treasurer of a large church and was asked by a member for information on who were paying tithe, and she adamantly refused to give any such information. She eventually resigned as she was too pressured.

This is too funny. How can any treasure withhold information from the owner's rep, which is the pastor? Those that participate in the SDA church may not realize that they have no control or legal rights. This is a well-organized cult that has succeeded in disguising their cultic wickedness in the name of Jesus. But sooner or later, people discover that they have been misled and lied to on almost every point. Then they leave the church…

Elaine said: I'm not sure what the church manual policy is, but I will never attend or be a member of such a church.

This is the way that all SDA churches are managed. The church manual makes it clear that only tithe payers can hold office. All pastors know this rule, as well as how to control the members and bring in the tithe. They are all taught the importance of this scam. Thus the SDA's have degenerated into a worthless cult. They have no safe or honest churches.

Elaine said: Most pastors have no interest in such information and any pastor who does, is worse than weird and should be reported the conference, and I would be the one reporting.

While some pastors may not like such matters, all SDA pastors are trained about the importance and necessity of tithe paying. In fact, I doubt you will ever go to any church on Sabbath and not hear a long plea and prayer about tithe paying. This is a standard part of every SDA service.

It is such a featured doctrine that there can be no doubt that all the pastors are in on this scam. This is how they are paid, and how they are promoted. Which means that the SDA pastors are mostly hired hands. They are working for money, not to save souls by the preaching of the Gospel.

For further research, here are some links about tithe from the AT site:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/7387.html?1134446681

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/57.html?1012461317

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2022.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/12815.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/7446.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2076.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/205.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/1680.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2081.html

Ron Corson said: I just read through the manual chapters on the nominating committee as well as the Gospel finance and I don't see anything that would back up his bringing in tithe statements and saying that only those people are eligible.

Ron, the SDA's didn't get this far by not understanding how propaganda works. You missed what they were saying on this point because it was buried in another place on purpose. But it is there nonetheless.

The SDA's are expert at trying to dishonestly hide the real meaning and intent of their words and doctrines. But no one should be fooled by their endless double-talk and trickery. The SDA's are dead wrong to teach that tithing is church doctrine, and even more wrong to set up two different classes in the church--one that can hold office and one that cannot.

Listen to their folly:

In recognition of the Bible plan and the solemn privilege and responsibility that rest upon church members as children of God and members of His body, the church, all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury.

Tithing—a Scriptural Obligation—Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmanha.htm

Regardless of what the SDA's teach, in the NT, there is no tithe obligation for any Christian. Why? Because there is no such doctrine in the New Covenant any more than there are priests or ritual circumcision. Tithing is an Old Covenant doctrine that was banished by the Apostles, along with a separate class of priests.

So there is no such thing as any Christian paying a "faithful tithe." NT Tithe paying is a false and dishonest doctrine that sets up a hierarchy to control minds and establish a fraudulent religious Empire. But the SDA's don't care what the NT teaches; any that refuse to embrace their scam "should not be elected to any church office."

Here is the point you were trying to find. It was purposely hidden, but it is there nonetheless:

To Foster Tithing-As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 136-138, 191.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office.

Tithing can be fostered by public presentation of the scriptural obligations privilege and responsibility of stewardship and by personal labor with the members. Such labor should be carried on in a tactful and helpful manner. The elder should regard all financial matters pertaining to church members as confidential and should not place such information in the hands of unauthorized persons.

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmann.htm

So here is the place where the SDA's come out and say: "no tithe, no office." They tried to bury it, but it is there for all to see anyway, because this is how the church controls people.

"Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter (of tithe) should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office."

Moreover, the SDA Baptismal vows also contain a pledge to "support the church through tithe." Those that refuse are not considered "faithful or loyal members." They cannot hold church office.

9. Do you believe in church organization? Is it your purpose to worship God and to support the church by through your tithes and offerings and by your personal effort and influence?

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmano.htm

Thus, the nominating committee will blacklist those that are not loyal tithe payers:

Nominating Committee to Consult Prospective Officers-Having nominated for the various offices persons who are faithful, loyal members of the local church, the appropriate members of the nominating committee should inform them of their nomination to office and secure their consent to serve.

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmanj.htm

The facts are clear. Tithe is a scared doctrine for SDA's. If you don't play along, you will be blacklisted from church office and treated like a second-class citizen.

Moreover, this topic is forbidden in the SDA church. It cannot be debated or discussed. No pastor will deal honestly with this false doctrine that gives the hierarchy their false authority, which includes the pastor because he is part of the hierarchy and works exclusively for them.

In fact, the pastor is part of the hierarchy. He is paid from the tithe, even as he answers--not to the people--but to his superiors. The pastors are placed in the local churches by the hierarchy to control the churches--as if they were profit centers. Thus no one should think that an SDA pastor is on his or her side. Not at all. They are part of the hierarchy. And their job is to control the church in the manner that the hierarchy dictates to them. Period.

Robert L. Shields said: This is my first post and I hope that you all are not too hard on me, but tithing is a subject that is close to my heart.

Welcome. You can speak freely here.

Bob said: For many years I returned a faithful "modified" tithe. What is a modified tithe? That is what Adventism and many other churches teach. In no way is it scriptural.

Correct. There is no such doctrine as tithing in the church. This is not an opinion, but a fact of church history and theology.

Bob said: First of all it is part of the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant. Nowhere in the New Covenant is there a requirement to pay tithe.

Correct. Not only that, Paul gives a command about giving that repudiates tithe, and forever prohibits anyone from embracing this OC doctrine.

2Cor. 9:5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness.

2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Paul's statement that says " Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart," is the OPPOSITE of tithe. Thus giving in the church had no 10% regulation. Each person could decide what to give, not the Old Covenant law, with its many rules and Temple regulations.

Bob said: Tithe was never paid in shekels anyway. It was paid in animals and produce. If Israelites didn't raise crops or animals they simply didn't pay tithe, so all Israelites didn't pay it.

Correct. The way the Gentiles try to mimic tithe is all wrong. They are not close to getting it correct according to the Old Covenant rules. There are no such rules about tithe in the NT, because there is no such doctrine in the church. The church practiced SHARING, not tithing.

Acts 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.

1Cor. 9:10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.

1Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

Heb. 13:16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Gal. 6:6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

Eph. 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

2Tim. 2:6 The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops.

Sharing replaced tithing in the church as a method of Gospel finance. The SDA's don't understand the Gospel or the Two Covenants correctly, which is why they don't realize that tithing is banished from the church because it is against the Gospel.

Bob said: Churches have taken the old system, modified it and are using it as a tool to extract money from the faithful.

Correct. Such theology is wicked and evil.

Bob said: Ellen White's Angel had it wrong. Her visions somehow got crossed up in her brain and the flock has not bothered to seek the truth about the matter. Well, maybe some have because only 25-30% of Adventists are tithe payers.

Ellen White cannot be used as an excuse for tithe. She did not invent it, nor was it even developed by SDA's until long after the 3rd Angels Message was developed. Neither is tithing a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages.

If Ellen White were here today, she would encourage everyone to study the Bible in order to find out what is truth. This was ALWAYS her position, and thus she would encourage the study of this topic as well as all others.

Bob said: Irene, take this to the church board and ask them to do a study on tithing. If they are honest they will stop asking the flock to pat it. That will cause the GC to rumble.

What SDA church board is honest? Not one. The SDA's are so full of false doctrine and myth that it is hard to find any point about which they are correct. So you can forget about anyone in the SDA church speaking up about the travesty of tithe. It is a forbidden topic.

When Dr. Ford told the truth about the IJ, he was slandered and exiled. What do you think would happen if anyone today stood up and told the truth about NT tithe? There would not even be a hearing to look at the matter. Such a reformer would be excommunicated immediately.

The SDA's are not Protestant. They are just another dishonest cult that has lost their way. Pity. They had such a noble and necessary mission.

No one should trust the SDA hierarchy or think that they are even slightly honest. They are not. They are a cruel and wicked organization that falsely claims to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Unless they confess and repent, they are doomed to hell.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn it Ron...I found the rule on tithing and church office. It's in the 1986 Church Manual anyway. Under the chapter on tithe... page 135

"Conference Workers and Church Officers to set example in returning tithe....The last sentence in the paragraph says...No one shall be continued as either a church officer or conference worker who does not conform to this standard (returning a tithe)of leadership."

It's a bummer but there it is. Thanks for helping me access the site.

renie
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Bob Shields....a big welcome to our place. I hope you will continue to be a part of our conversations here.

I'm printing off your comments and will use them if the committee gets bulky. I'm hoping a simple appeal will change their minds and they will vote to recommend that our bookkeeper keep all members' giving confidential. I'm going to request the our bookkeeper refuse to reveal ANY information on the members.

Your understanding of the tithe situation is helpful. I've learned a lot from all of you.

Keep your 'bobservations' coming

renie
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Considering that you are probably right on your observations of the church organization, what in the world can an unimportant person like myself do?

Go up the ladder? It looks like even you with your influence can't get a hearing from the church. Have you ever been given a audience with anyone of importance?

A lot of members just throw up their hands and start another church which sometimes works but a lot of the times doesn't. Are we stuck? Is there no hope?

Most of us, most of the time, give up. We don't want to make waves. We just want it all to work it's self out. We've afraid we will be working against the Lord and hindering His work.

We've just afraid we will cause trouble.

renie
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, I found your post to be right on with the way I understand scripture. You certainly have a handle on Adventism.

I have to take issue with one of your statements though, It is: Ellen White cannot be used as an excuse for tithe. She did not invent it, nor was it even developed by SDA's until long after the 3rd Angels Message was developed. Neither is tithing a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages.

While I haven't the foggiest when the time frame of tithing system was adopted by the church I do know that Ellen White put her stamp of approval on it through convenient visions. Today the church looks to her writings for their authority to continue this false doctrine. Where else can they look? Christian tithing certainly isn't Biblical. If this were the only place Mrs. White blundered it would be enough to convict her of being something other that what the church has bestowed on her. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Thank you Renie for your welcome. It has taken me a long time to get up the courage to write on this forum. One of my favorite friends is Hubert Sturgis. He delivered one of our babies back in Ohio many years ago. I have the deepest respect for him and his family. They sacrificed much for the good of our community and were beacons of what the Holy Spirit will do if we allow Him to work in our hearts. I want him to know that I remain a dedicated Christian and understand and believe in the simple plan of salvation. I did leave the Adventist church because of doctrinal issues, but I still love with the people I fellowshipped with for over 40 years. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
As soon as I saw your name, I wondered, is this the "Bob Shields" that I knew. I am glad that you identified yourself. Your kind words about me are totally undeserving (I know myself better!).

Welcome to this forum. There is a wide range of opinion here, so choose wisely.

About the tithe: Because we have faulty human beings in the ministry and in leadership does not mean that God is not in this church, and that paying tithe is not needed.

Tom and others will tell you at great length about the faults in leadership. My only question is: would they do better? would they even agree?

Well, that is enough for now.
-----------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

Is paying the tithe a New Testament doctrine? First of all, we cannot separate the New Testament from the Old Testament.

quote:

“21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. Numbers 18:21-26

Leviticus 27:30-32 And all the tithe of the land, it is holy unto the LORD.
And concerning the tithe ... the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.


There are a number of other verses in the Old Testament advocating the tithe to support the Levites. The best known of the Old Testament passages is Malachi 3:8-10. This is the promise of blessing to those who pay tithe. Many people, even non-Christians, in reading this passage will pay tithe because they want the blessing.

How about the New Testament? This is what we have:
Matthew 23:23 . . for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, ... these ought ye to have done,
1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:18 . . For the scripture saith, ... The labourer is worthy of his reward.
See also: 1 Cor. 9:4,12, 18; Gal. 6:6.

These passages indicate that God expects His people to support the church. The details of paying a tenth of one’s income are from the Old Testament. To say that this is just for Israel or just for the old covenant raises some problems:
1. The Christian church of today has become the Israel of the Old Testament (Romans 11) with all the promises and responsibilities.
2. The Old Covenant was a short term affair lasting about six weeks and never supplanted the everlasting covenant.
3. There are some details in church administration for which God gave the church authority – which even heaven recognizes.

quote:

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19


Here are some quotes from the Church Manual, 16th edition (the newest).

quote:

“The gospel plan for the support of the work of God in preaching the everlasting gospel is by the tithes and offerings of His people.” p. 151.
“all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury.” p. 153.
“Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have a part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.”“ p. 154.
“The treasurer should always remember that relations with individual members are strictly confidential. The treasurer should be careful never to comment on the tithe returned by any member or of the income or anything concerning it, except to those who share the responsibility of the work.” P. 62


From the above I would gather that paying the tithe is a responsibility of the member and the recommendation of the church. I believe it has good New Testament support as outlined above. Also, as we pay tithe, God will bless us and more than make up all that we give to Him.
-------------------
Hubert F. Sturges (please pardon, this may be the longest single post I have made!)
.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
How about the New Testament? This is what we have:
Matthew 23:23 . . for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, ... these ought ye to have done,
1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:18 . . For the scripture saith, ... The labourer is worthy of his reward.
See also: 1 Cor. 9:4,12, 18; Gal. 6:6.

Yes Hubert, Matt. 23:23 makes my point. First remember Jesus was born under the law. He was talking to those under the law. The Pharisees were bringing their tithe, not of money, but from the land. They grew their tithe. Never are we told to pay tithe in shekels. From this we glean that only those who grew crops or animals ever paid this tax. Now you contend that there is no break between the Old and New. that will make a great debating discussion at another point. If perhaps you are correct then those who believe in supporting the Levites with tithe should pay it as God instructed, not with money.

Another point is that not all Israelites were farmers. Those who were not didn't pay the tithe because they had no crops nor any animals. Your idea is diametrically opposed to what God ask the Israelites to do. Your church asks everyone to pay the tax. Yes, I say it is a tax because it surely isn't/wasn't given freely. It was part of the same law that SDAs claim ended at Calvary.

Do you see my point Hubert? The New Covenant in Jesus gives us a much better plan for supporting the work of saving souls. It is giving from the heart. I know that you practice that, so I am talking to the choir. Far be it from me to try to convince those that give 10% of their money to the cause of God that they should not be doing that. What I am concerned about is telling the flock that they must give it to be in Grace with God and the church. This is definitely a false doctrine.

1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

We must differ as to what the Gospel contained Hubert. My understanding is that we are under the Gospel of Jesus and the Israelites were under the gospel of Moses. We can't serve both. I will choose Jesus. He fulfilled the law of Moses with the over 300 laws and they were nailed to His Cross. Listen to James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. This love entails much more than is covered in the last 6 commandments of the old law. In fact, the last 6 say nothing about love, they were requirements just like the SDA modified tithing system.

As for the other scripture you quoted, I find nothing there that would ever lead me to tithe.

Lets look at this tithing system in an other way. I was going to compare you with me, but I might be barking up the wrong tree to do so.
Anyway, lets say we have two tithe paying people and one makes $100,000 and the other makes 10,000. This is not an unreasonable scenario. One has $90,000 left after the tax and the other $9,000. $90,000 would buy almost anything within reason, $9,000 would hardly put food on the table. The government would be issuing food stamps. That is not a fair system Hubert and it has caused many to leave church in discouragement. I know because I have been there and I surely don't plan to go back to such a regime. In Christ, Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think anyone would disagree that the church does need financial support to run, to pay the bills. And the members are the only source for that.

My beef is........the way our pastor handled the situation at the nominating committee meeting that night. I would like to go back to that for a minute.

For him to bring a list of only the tithing members to the meeting for the committee to consider was,in my opinion, insulting and humiliating. Our church is small enough that the committee could easily look down the list and see whose name wasn't on the list.

One of the elders who isn't paying a tithe struggles to make ends meet. But she is on the platform almost every sabbath, she was preaching once a month at our church and at one of the two other churches our pastor has to pastor.

She helped organize a prison ministry, teaches a class, leads the music, assigns the duties for the sabbath service on a rotating basis. She is actually more involved in our church than the pastor is. He gets a salary and she doesn't.

With her leadership, we gave food and toys to three families in the community last Christmas.
The point being, service and talent to the church should count for something.

I don't know what we will do without her now that she does'nt qualify to hold office.

Actually, our pastor deserves what he's going to get this next year. He's going to have to do more of the work himself.


renie
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, my sympathies for the situation you find youself in.

However, your integrity is the only thing of value you have, and will take to Heaven with you. So stick by your principles, which you already know what is right: no one has a right to know who pays tithe--it is between the individual and God.

As for Christians and tithe, both Tom and Robert are right, and I have studied and know that there is not a single command in the NT for Christians to pay tithe. The verses in Corinthians outline what is expected of us, and it is NOT a tithe--which is a command given to the Jews. There were hundreds of commands given to the Jews, and how how SDAs decided which ones should now be observed and which ones are no longer to be observed?

For myself, I do not live in the Jewish system which is an entirely different system and it became obsolete after Christ, as all the NT clearly explains. The more one studies the requirement for Christians as given by Paul (Jesus never gave any to Christians, only to good Jews) it can be seen that Adventists have combined the Old and New and "selected" those which they felt should be valid today. Don't ask on what basis they made those "picking and choosing" as you will find none; at least I've never seen a criteria that was used to classify those which are still to be observed today and those which are no longer valid.

I could say much more, but if anyone here wants to offer information on the questions and statements I've made, please do so.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine...I AM going to stick by what I believe is right and just. I'm going to fight this monster. (I'm not referring to the pastor, only the problem).

I may get the right FOOT of fellowship.

renie
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, my sympathies for the situation you find youself in.

However, your integrity is the only thing of value you have, and will take to Heaven with you. So stick by your principles, which you already know what is right: no one has a right to know who pays tithe--it is between the individual and God.

As for Christians and tithe, both Tom and Robert are right, and I have studied and know that there is not a single command in the NT for Christians to pay tithe. The verses in Corinthians outline what is expected of us, and it is NOT a tithe--which is a command given to the Jews. There were hundreds of commands given to the Jews, and how how SDAs decided which ones should now be observed and which ones are no longer to be observed?

For myself, I do not live in the Jewish system which is an entirely different system and it became obsolete after Christ, as all the NT clearly explains. The more one studies the requirement for Christians as given by Paul (Jesus never gave any to Christians, only to good Jews) it can be seen that Adventists have combined the Old and New and "selected" those which they felt should be valid today. Don't ask on what basis they made those "picking and choosing" as you will find none; at least I've never seen a criteria that was used to classify those which are still to be observed today and those which are no longer valid.

I could say much more, but if anyone here wants to offer information on the questions and statements I've made, please do so.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene,

Several years ago I received a call from Texas. A man, "SDA", was anxious to help ex-missionaries. He offered me a share in drilling an oil well. A share would cost $7,500 initially, and if the drilling was successful, another $7,500 to complete the well. Returns could be anywhere from $1,000 to $9,000 per month.

With bills from building a house, and a son in Loma Linda - you bet I was tempted. I thought I would see what EGW had to say. She was very kind. She did not say it was wrong, only that such an investment would fail and I would lose my money!

Well, what did she know about oil wells? Yet if my religion meant anything to me, maybe I should take her advice. So I did, and turned down the offer.

As it turned out the initial drilling was successful. Which meant that if I had invested I would need to come up with a second $7,500 to complete the well. I did not invest. When they tried to complete the well, salt water flooded the well and the project failed.

Bottom line: Ellen White saved me $15,000.
---------------------------

About the tithe: I realize that you are not arguing against the tithe -- only against publicizing the names of tithe payers. I get from the church manual that it is appropriate for the pastor to know who the tithe payers are. For a list of tithe payers to be brought before a committee does not seem wise. By exclusion it would be easy to know those who did not pay tithe.

How about the poor and those who are just scraping by? If Malachi 3:8-10 means anything, God has promised that he will bless the remaining 90% and give blessings to make it more valuable than an untithed 100%. Thus even the very poor need to pay tithe because they need that blessing.
-----------------------

Here is how I think it works. Just this week my car (a 1997 Dodge Caravan) boiled over. I immediately parked and called a tow truck. There was water under the front end of the car. I looked and saw only new hoses and no evidence of a leak. The only think I could think of was a cracked block -- and with an 11 year old car, than means the scrap yard.

The garage looked it over and found a "cracked radiator." Instead of a $5,000 bill for a new engine, the bill was $375 for a new radiator. (I guess radiators nowadays are plastic, and failure is not uncommon). A coincidence, of course. OR did God save me $4,625 because I am a tithe payer?

Dunno.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
You have some good arguments. God leaves us free to make our own decisions in a number of areas.
------------------------

I see that you live in Maynardsville, TN. I have no idea where that is. I still have some nostalgia for Dayton. The Far Hills SDA Church was the most fun church I have ever been in.

I retired from medicine five years ago. Then moved from Woodland, CA to Grand Junction, Colorado just two months ago. We are still working to get settled in our apartment.

If you are interested in my thoughts on the old covenant, you might look at www.everlastingcovenant.com
If you are ever in Grand Junction, please stop by for a visit (Phone: 970-589-7282)

Hubert.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb, as a physician you are too familiar with anecdotal tales to consider them good medical advice.

Because your decisions were influenced by your own philosophy, you should recognize that was the reason you chose a position, not that one was right or the other wrong based on some religious belief.

The odds are always going to be one way or the other, not infinite possibilities. It is impossible to prove that your belief determines the outcome of any choices you make if they are subject to forces completely out of your control.
Those are not double blind studies, are they?
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An anecdote is not without value. Scientifically one must recognize that anecdote can point to truth. At the same time they cannot "prove" truth. That is where the double blind study comes in.

An anecdote is a witness. The stories that I gave are incontrovertible facts, not philosophy or beliefs. The conclusions and applications I take from these events are definitely colored by what I read in the Bible.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Hubert, actually we live in Sharps Chapel, TN which is even harder to find on a map. Sharps Chapel is 40 miles North of Knoxville. In 1994 we purchased 5 acres on Norris Lake, I retired in 1995 and in 1996 we broke ground for our retirement home. The contractor we were going to use decided he didn't want anything to do with building a Styrofoam home and I ended up building it myself. It took me 3 years and God lead in the project and we have a beautiful home nestled in the woods on the lake, which fulfilled a long time dream. I believe God lead me all the way because I had never built or done that type of carpentry in my life.

We have enjoyed having many of our Ohio friends come down and the best part is that we are in between our kids. Two live in GA, one in Chattanooga and one in Dayton.

It is interesting to find out the you are back in Colorado. What a beautiful place to live. We vacationed there for the last two years. Both years we lugged a toy hauler with two ATVs and camped in the beautiful mountains. Both years we spent time at our favorite Bogan Flats camp ground and rode up to Crystal and through Lead King Basin. Last year we went over to Utah and rode great trails there.

I will gladly read your post on the old and new covenants. My studies have taken a very independent route. My only help is the Holy Spirit and my Strong's concordance. This on going study has indeed taken me on a different route than when I used Ellen White as the interpreter. In Christ, Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hub, from my own life experiece I've learned to pay tithe for the good it will do for others, not for my own reward.

Why? My husband and I have paid tithe all of the 64 years we've been together and we've experienced many, many tough situations where we have been badly hurt finiancally and emotionally even though we have paid a tithe plus other giving to the church

I have to admit that over the years I have seen some people blessed over and over and others knocked down over and over.

Maybe you're one of the blessed ones, Hubert.

renie

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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
I am a firm believer that God gave messages for the church through Ellen White. Further, I believe that Ellen White was given to the church to prepare the 144,000, a special group -- NOT the only ones saved.

Having said that, I recognize that EGW has been misused. There are some people who will preach a sermon or write an article with only a string of EGW quotes. I believe that this is a misuse of EGW and is evidence of laziness on the part of the speaker or writer.

In my covenant project, I have used the Bible almost entirely. There is an occasional EGW quotation, not for proof, but for the language she uses to make a point.

You mentioned Strong's Concordance. I use a computer program called "WordSearch." I can quickly find verses with this by reference or by a phrase in the verse. There is also a cross-reference feature that helps a lot to find verses on the same topic. Of course, there is Strongs; and I have about twelve Bible translations.
----------------------------

Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too.

Colorado is not new to us. We have lived in Colorado for ten years prior to this move. Six of those years in Colorado Springs.

It sounds like you have a beautiful place there in Tennessee.
-----------------------------
Hubert
.
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J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is NOTHING, NOTHING which gets me hotter under the collar, the monthly "newsletter" from the Texico Conference to my son (who's name is still on the church books. (nice expensive slick 4 color process from the conference treasure)

They always send a tithe envelope:

Now besides the FACT, as Tom Norris has repeatedly pointed out over the years, that there is NO mention of a "tithe" in the NT.

Now they want a 20% Tithe.

Someone correct me, if I'm wrong. But the 10% in the OT went to the tribe of Levi. This supported them, and they took care of the all religious activities, the Temple, the priest, the religion teachers, etc?

Now they want an extra 5% for "Local Church Budget!" IN OT TIMES, the Levites cleaned the temple, printed the SS programs, held "evangelistic programs," took care of "community Services." WHY DOESN'T THE SDA CHURCH USE THE TITHE, AS THEY DID IN OT TIMES?

Then they want 3% for "Texico Conference Ministries." Church schools building (isn't that a temple, and shouldn't the 10% take care of it?) "Youth Ministries" Ah, the Conference Youth director, a minister can't be paid out of the 10%.......? Sheeeeesh

Another 2% for "World Ministries." WHAT A FAKE OUT...... There isn't any way in the world I'd ever be a Seventh-day Adventist again......since the brethren are SO DISHONEST......keep the 10% for their own sticky pockets......and claim that their not to use in on cleaning up the church...or even hiring a secretary for the pastor of a large church! BS, BS, BS, AND more BS! The SDA church has POLUTED the used of the Tithe, for the Ordains own SELFISH purposes.....and then lays a guilt trip on the poor FLEECED SHEEP. To give them more, more, more!

I wonder if the Chief Rabbi, of the Levi't tribe, in King David’s day, was able to swing himself a more the $500,000 exclusive "executive" home......Just as Jon Paulson was able to arrange......After Folkenberg sold his home for excess of $460,000 (Ol Bob, sure liked to live the high on the HOG life....with his $24,000 Harley Motorcycle! and the Helicopter he insisted be rented for him, where-ever he happened to be traveling, even in Papua New Guinea (they had to bring one over from Australia, just for him!)

I recall one member here telling me, that even in Dayton Ohio.....Folkenburg couldn't be bothered with simply having a Lemo pick him up from the airport, but insisted that Kettering Memorial Hospital rent a Helicopter for him.

Too bad, that the Good Lord, doesn't practice the art of instant punishment anymore.....like he did with Eli's son's! We might have Ministers who actually took their role seriously! Instead of for self enrichment!

I remember seeing pictures of the last GC in St. Louis. NAD Pres' Don Snieder had to have Segway rented for him.....Me thinks, that if he walked some of that FAT off, he might have prevented some of his brain lesions, and would be in better health.
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom wrote:
Here is the point you were trying to find. It was purposely hidden, but it is there nonetheless:

To Foster Tithing-As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 136-138, 191.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office.

Tithing can be fostered by public presentation of the scriptural obligations privilege and responsibility of stewardship and by personal labor with the members. Such labor should be carried on in a tactful and helpful manner. The elder should regard all financial matters pertaining to church members as confidential and should not place such information in the hands of unauthorized persons.

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmann.htm

So here is the place where the SDA's come out and say: "no tithe, no office." They tried to bury it, but it is there for all to see anyway, because this is how the church controls people.


Renie also posted that part but you are not sunk yet. They must define tithe as only 10% that goes to the SDA church. Is that the biblical definition of tithe?

The problem is not support of the church or charitable giving those I agree are examples the church leadership should give. The problem is that they take upon themselves the role of creating a new tithe and themselves as the sole repository of tithe. So that is where you hit them. On what authority do they make the claim as being the storehouse of God.
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

J.R., I still hold out hope, especially with the name of your forum "Adventist for Tomorrow". Hey, at the top of the page it is "Adventist of Tomorrow", which is it?? I think things will change but it will take a few more funerals, me thinks.
God is, therefore I think!
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too.

Bogan Flats is about 10 miles beyond Red Stone at the foot of McClure Pass. It is on the same road that goes into Marble and on to Crystal. Our kids did Wilderness Challenge survival out of Crystal years ago. That is what led us to the area. Most of the Crystal area is owned by an Adventist family. I think they made it into a corporation.

I remember years ago we met you, Barbara and your children at a camping area South of Rocky Mountain Park. It must have been around 1964. Time flies when having fun.

I began giving up on Ellen White about 15 years ago. It started differently than for most formers. In Sabbath School she was over quoted and every debated point was solved by reading from something she wrote. My thought was always "why don't we prove our points from scripture?" During Friday night Bible study the same would happen. My Bible scripture was never as good as what was quoted from Ellen. The more they pushed her the more I resisted. Then I began a quest to prove her wrong. Boy, did I find what I was looking for. I could write a book, but since many have already been written I am sure mine wouldn't rate with those who have diligently made her a special study. The church has hidden so much Hubert. From the church we only get one side of her. There is no way she could qualify to be a prophet or "much more than" as she said of herself. I have read the apologists and there arguments are weak at best.

I have grown much since leaving her behind. I believe she has caused multi more problems for the church and individuals than she has ever helped. When Adventists really take her seriously, even though she is dead she controls their minds and the results are sad. I know because I have friends that have come under her control. Not only are they robots, but legalism abounds.

The false tithing system that SDAs teach is just the tip of the iceberg that got approval from her pen.

Dig into her writings Hubert and you will be surprised what you will find. In Christ, Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hear what you are saying, Bob. My parents had a number of EGW books. But I don't recall that they over-quoted her. EGW was frequently used at PUC when I was there. At the time there was no issue about this.

Did Ellen make mistakes? I suspect that she did. But I wonder how Isaiah would fare if he were a modern prophet? He may have made mistakes too!

In doing the Covenant Project, I have found some material from EGW, but not near as much as I find in the Bible. What Ellen says is true, I think, but she does not answer the hard questions. This has opened my eyes to our need to make a deep study of the Bible for our doctrines.

When I was at PUC I was probably as much a nominal Adventist as most. We had a teacher there, Mary C. McReynolds. She was a somewhat intimidating, dour sort of battleship that we were careful not to cross.

Then I needed a short course to fill out my program. She taught a 2 hour course on the Spirit of Prophecy. So I thought, why not? It was a wonderful course. It changed my thinking in a number of areas. And -- I became a friend of Mary C. McReynolds! One of their dormitories there is now named McReynolds Hall.

Since you have those acres on a lake, do you landscape it, or do you let it go natural? We lived in Tucson, AZ for three years while I took a residency in medicine. Most of the people there let their yards go natural. We learned to never move a rock. If you did, the desert broom would take over that spot.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2008 - 8:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I will send you some pictures Hubert.

We had to clear many trees around our home because of their danger of falling on the house. Then to get a view of the lake we took down some more, but we do allow much of the land to grow wild. We have a garden over the leach field :-), which is one of the few places we get enough sun light for plants to grow.

Back to Ellen White and then I will leave the subject to rest. I have discovered that the plan of salvation is so simple, but when I was an Adventist it was so hard. I tried to measure myself by what Mrs. White wrote. It was impossible to ever come close to what she expected from her flock. Messages like: never say you are saved, meant to me that I couldn't ever know that Jesus blood covered me. It was His promise, but somehow trough her glasses I couldn't claim that promise. Her claim that only 1 in 20 SDAs are ready for eternity with Jesus. Using her writings as our measuring stick not one in 50,000 are ready. She could be among the rest of us. Did she completely ever overcome come sin? I am not the judge, but the Apostle Paul gives us much insight on the subject. The only way we will ever look clean to the Father is through the Son. Sure you will be able to find where she says this, but in your search how many places will you pass up the other statements.

You mentioned the Far Hills Church. We were baptized there and there we found many great folks that we looked up to and yes, we had many wonderful moments. That church is no more by the way. Some moved to Centerville to start a new congregation and some stayed to finally end up in North Dayton with a new building called the Stillwater Church.

Getting back to the subject, we had our early roots in the Methodist Church. Methodists are very non judgmental and non legalistic. Soon after becoming Adventist I became the most disgusting legalist you could ever imagine. I look back and shudder. I can blame no one but myself. I was mimicking my peers and taking the cue. Again, looking back I can analyze this as being caused by none other than the writings of Mrs. White. Legalism could be compared to mold. Once let loose it is almost impossible to eradicate. I am not saying she is the mold, but it sure is her manna (what we were fed) that attracts the mold.

In closing, I bluntly do not believe the SDA Church is the remnant. Like many other denominations it is mired in such steep tradition that it completely overshadows some of the simple truths found in Scripture. In Christ, Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2008 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
I have thought about these issues and here are what I come up with:

The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we see ourselves. In other words, the gap widens. Only the cross of Christ bridges that gap. What then is the perfection that is demanded of the Christian? I believe it is perfect trust, faith in Jesus Christ. How this works out in the life can be seen in Hebrews 12:2. Then study 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic.

Legalism? Yes. All sinful human beings are legalistic. It is the natural human condition. I have to admit myself that I am a legalist, saved from my legalism by grace!

But EGW did not cause the problem of legalism. I explained SDA beliefs to a class of 15 young people in the Presbyterian church in Colorado Springs. Just for fun, I asked them "How are we saved?" We went down the line, one by one, and it wasn't until the 10th or 12th person that said we are saved by grace through the blood of Christ.

Here is another thought, you will have to think about: The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489).

I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!)
-----------------------

I suspect it was hard to cut down those nice tall hardwoods at your place. But if you want a garden you have to clear space -- not just for sun but to clear the ground of all the roots of trees. That means that all treas within 50 feet of the garden have to be cut down! You can get a trencher and cut the roots, but in time they will come back.

Hubb
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 7, 2008 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I am going to try this again. The first one got lost in cyber space.

The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we see ourselves. In other words, the gap widens. Only the cross of Christ bridges that gap. What then is the perfection that is demanded of the Christian? I believe it is perfect trust, faith in Jesus Christ. How this works out in the life can be seen in Hebrews 12:2. Then study 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. Heb 12:2 is a beautiful truth. The second part certainly tells us where He went from here and He sure didn't wait till 1800 years later.

Legalism? Yes. All sinful human beings are legalistic. It is the natural human condition. I have to admit myself that I am a legalist, saved from my legalism by grace!
The difference is that I now recognize my legalism Hubert. Also, since I have allowed the Holy Spirit to be my guide, I haven't had the problem I once had.

But EGW did not cause the problem of legalism.
Wow!I sure wouldn't want to defend that position in a court of law. :-)
I explained SDA beliefs to a class of 15 young people in the Presbyterian church in Colorado Springs. Just for fun, I asked them "How are we saved?" We went down the line, one by one, and it wasn't until the 10th or 12th person that said we are saved by grace through the blood of Christ.
Yes, many who profess Christianity really do not understand the simple plan of salvation or do not hold the promise. We now attend a Methodist Church for Christian fellowship. The Sunday School teacher made the statement "I sure hope I am saved". What have they been reading? Where is their trust. SDAs are no different.

Here is another thought, you will have to think about: The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489).
}Verse 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.

It would appear that the writer of Hebrews and Ellen are talking about two different things. Ellen about defects in character and the Bible about unrepentant reprobates. Paul said that he died daily to sin. Did he finally at some point have a perfect character? All I know is that I will remain a sinner saved by Grace. I know that I can improve my character , but it will never on this Earth be perfect.

I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!)

What is the "full effect of Grace"? Prepare a group? Do you mean the SDA Church? Satan's final thrust against Jesus ended at the Cross. Satan was proven wrong and lost. Satan cannot rob me of my salvation. Try as he will I am safe in Jesus arms. Anyone who continues to claim the promise has this assurance. I don't believe we are saved as groups. Are not each one of us responsible to work out our own salvation? Jesus is patiently waiting.
Where there is life there is hope.
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert wrote:

Paul said that he died daily to sin.

No Paul did not ever say that. Your Adventist upbringing is showing. Paul was talking about being in constant danger, not about dying to sin.

Hubb wrote:
The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489).

I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!)


How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000. No doubt by which you mean people living perfect lives. Those people then being within the group identified as "you and me" somehow becomes the ones who prove God in the Great Controversy. What weren't the other who you acknowledge to be saved throughout history enough to prove the Grace of God sufficient?

I don't know Hubb you are a smart man, how can you hold to such ideas? Do you just not think about the implications of your belief? Surely you have been on here long enough to stimulate some thought in those directions. I do know the answer however, you like so many other Adventists have taken EGW's positions without question like a Roman Catholic may take the Pope's position or a Lutheran Martin Luther's position holding on to a tradition well past it's expiration date. Rather like Robert did above with the statement that Paul died daily to sin.

NASB 1 Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.

New Protestants.com
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Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb,

Assuming that you are one of the 144,000. What tribe are you from?
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Ron, It is usually my custom to look up quotes or thoughts in scripture before presenting them. You are so correct. Forty some years in Adventism put imprints on my mind that I thought were sound Biblical thoughts. Every now and again I find something other than what I was taught.

One such was when the family of Noah moved East and built the Tower of Babel on the plains of Shinar. Adventism, through the prophet's writings, teach they built it to avoid another flood. This is a blatant untruth. They built it to make a name for themselves and to keep from scattering all over the Earth. Ask almost any Adventist why the tower was built and you will get the flood answer.

Ask any Adventist when the Sabbath was instituted for man and the answer will be on the seventh day of creation. I can't find any scripture that would indicate that man was instructed to observe Sabbath until after the exodus. In fact Deut. 5 tells us it was not with the fathers that the covenant was given it was only with the Israelites.

Ask almost any Adventist about their tithing system and they will refer back to Abraham and that he was a tither. This is also misconstruing what really happened and as far as we know only one time did he pay it. It had nothing to do with the Israelite ongoing tithing system.

The Adventist story about how Jesus went into the Father after sin entered is a fable. She said three times Jesus went in and pleaded with Him to allow Jesus to come to this Earth and pay the price of our redemption. The first two times God said no. The third try was sucessful and the angels shouted for joy.

We believed all those storys and thought they were Biblical. How easily man is fooled. P.T. Barnum said one is born every minute. There were not as many births back then. Wonder how many are born every minute today?
Where there is life there is hope.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert, nor will you find anything in the Bible about Noah preaching for 120 years before the flood. Guess where it originated?

There is also no command in the Bible at all about the 7th day as a rest day until Sinai: no mention of Abraham or any other patriarchs keeping Sabbath. No worship or rest day was ever given to Christians, either.

Nothing at all in the NT, period, instructing Christians about the requirement of paying tithe. It simply became a great financial benefit to the church to claim it as from the Bible, but it never was given for Christians.

Conflating EGW with the Bible is so imprinted because it was begun before SDA children even attended school. Many also were raised on "Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories" were, much like Mother Goose and other fairy tales, they "all lived happily ever after." Then, when confronted with life's problems that didn't turn out so perfect, there was a great disillusionment.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Ron, I wish I were as smart as you imply that I am! Here is your statement:
. . . . "How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000."

I wish you would read my post carefully and get the sense of what I am saying. I did NOT make a rather ambiguous statement that the "Great Controversy" is proved by grace ...

What I said was that . . . . "Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people."

In fact you went to the trouble to copy the full statement that I made. Read it again and compare it with your following comments. Then to cap it off, you "put words in my mouth" and say that I got it from EGW!

I used to think that you were careful with your thinking and posting Ron, but this is slap-dash and irresponsible to say the least.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Devon, I'm glad you asked the question:

I belong to the tribe of Issachar.

quote:

"Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:" Genesis 49:14


Please be kind and emphasize the last half of this sentence!

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

You have made quite a list. It would take me or anyone else several hours to find the references and to respond. As a friend, I think you need to be careful, a person will not be saved because of what he is against, but rather that he is FOR Christ.

I will comment on one statement, as this touches on the everlasting covenant:

quote:

"The Adventist story about how Jesus went into the Father after sin entered is a fable."


I don't recall having seen any statement that Jesus pleaded with the Father three times to be the Redeemer. Could you give me the reference?

And did this happen AFTER sin entered the world? Rev. 13:8 speaks of Jesus as being the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." And this is just one of several references that show that the Plan of Salvation was laid in Council within the Godhead BEFORE Creation. Look again at the website, the very first article, and the references for that article.

Hubert.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine,
Did Noah preach for 120 years? Put these two verses together:

quote:

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years" (Genesis 6:3).

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (2 Peter 2:5);


Hubb


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Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Hubb,

Cute answer, but it was a serious question. How do SDA's and others, such as JW's who see themselves as part of the 144,000 reconcile their membership with the fact that specific tribal membership is required for inclusion in the 144,000?

Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands. Revelation 7:4-9 NET

If we are not truly a member of any of the listed tribes, would it not be more likely that we would be among the non Jewish persons from every tribe, people and language?
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hope the following helps Hubert. It took me a while to find it, but sure enough the following is from the "pen of inspiration". The apologists will say that she knew that the plan of salvation was from the foundation of the Earth. So why did she write this?


"The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race." (Great Controversy, p.347)

"} as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:18-20)

"Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 45) Emphasis mine. Bob


Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert said:
"As a friend, I think you need to be careful, a person will not be saved because of what he is against, but rather that he is FOR Christ."

Well said Hubert. Thank you. I will say that I wish you had been around to tell the SDA Church that. It has not always been the most ecumenical.

On the other hand, is it wrong to expose falsehood?

In this case it was pointed out to me that what I paraphrased from Paul about Paul dieing daily to sin and it was not scriptural, only an Adventist cliché. I was merely pointing out a few other things I was taught that is not scriptural. I am encouraged that you pointed out that the plan of salvation was from the foundation of the World. Mrs. White was not that plain.
Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert said:
"Look again at the website, the very first article, and the references for that article."

I am lost as to how to go about finding that article. Bob

Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Devon,
We don't know everything about Revelation seven. Some things about that chapter may be symbolic. But hidden in my "cute answer" is serious intent.

Genesis 49 is the chapter where Jacob blesses each of his children before he dies. With each blessing he describes the character of each son. I have always chosen Issachar, as I feel at times that I have "two burdens."

Are the twelve tribes listed in Revelation seven all Jewish tribes? Or do they include Gentiles who are the "adopted Israel?" Frankly, I don't know, but I do believe that it is the latter, and that Gentiles are included. After all, most of the end time church will be gentiles.

The 144,000 are a special end time group. More is described of them in Revelation 14:1-5. It would seem to me that this group would have to include, or even be largely made up of gentiles.

I do not see anything in the Bible that indicates that ethnic Jews will be separately identified in end time events. Having said that, I also believe that individual Jews, with their God given talents will very important in God's end time work.

Hubb
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quote:
"that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 45)

In addition to the three times Jesus went before the Father the quoted statement above is within the paragraph. Question: If in addition to the covering of our sins by the Blood of the Lamb we have to be obedient to the laws of God, will any of us attain eternal life? I am under the assumption that all are disobedient to God's laws and that is the purpose of the covering blood. Has anyone (besides Jesus) ever been obedient to God's laws including the writer of the above statement? Should her statement have included the "and obedience to the law of God"?
Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
Compare these two statements:

quote:

"The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race." (Great Controversy, p.347)

"The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8)" Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 63


The verse you quoted 1 Peter 1:18-20 helps to clear up this apparent discrepancy: The plan was made in the Council of Heaven before Creation, but not instituted (or activated) until after sin. (You scared me at first about this. I would have had to completely rewrite article #1 "From the Foundation of the World)

Thank you for the quote of Christ being shut in with the Father three times, pleading for the human race. I was not aware of that quote. In my doing the covenant project, I have used the Bible with the help of WordSearch computer program for more than 95% of my findings. I have studied Patriarchs and Prophets pages 370-373 to see if what I said was in agreement with EGW (which it is).

I have done this purposely, as the Bible is what most people will have and will accept. Incidentally there is significantly MORE information in the Bible than there is in EGW. This is understandable as she has never claimed to be a theologian.

Another problem if I used the quote of "Christ shut in the Father three times" would be for me to support that statement. SDAs might accept EGW, but a website is read by many non-SDAs and they would not accept this.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
About the website -- www.everlastingcovenant.com click on article #1 "From the Foundation of the World" then on "References" then on "The Lamb of God"

Hope this helps. I have tried to make the website simple and easy to get around, but maybe I have not succeeded.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
see a discussion on keeping the law in Article #12, "The Ten Commandments" and go down to "Can the Law Be Kept."

Let me add to this Hebrews 12:2: Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith. It is my firm belief that we must not so much work to keep the law, as to learn complete trust and faith in Christ and leave our "perfection" up to Him. See also 1 John 1:6-10.

Hubb
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb wrote:
What I said was that . . . . "Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people."

In fact you went to the trouble to copy the full statement that I made. Read it again and compare it with your following comments. Then to cap it off, you "put words in my mouth" and say that I got it from EGW!


Surely you can do better then that Hubb. I have no concern with what you think Satan is going to do, it is in general worthless speculation. I do have concern over your statements about what God is going to do. Which is why my quote and statement is in context and relevant. As after your statement about Satan you said:

It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong.

Satan has been proven wrong since before the cross if you believe what the Gospel of John says. When Jesus said now Satan is condemned.

Now for the sake of clarity tell me where I put words in your mouth? I wrote:
I don't know Hubb you are a smart man, how can you hold to such ideas? Do you just not think about the implications of your belief? Surely you have been on here long enough to stimulate some thought in those directions. I do know the answer however, you like so many other Adventists have taken EGW's positions without question like a Roman Catholic may take the Pope's position or a Lutheran Martin Luther's position holding on to a tradition well past it's expiration date. Rather like Robert did above with the statement that Paul died daily to sin.

Your reaction was more like a hurt child then a thinking adult.
New Protestants.com
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, I didn't realize you were referring to your website. I just finished the article on keeping the law. I assume the law you are referring to is the Old Covenant. It is my understanding from many scriptures that the Old Covenant was fulfilled/accomplished at the Cross. Matt 5:18. Compare that with 2Cor 3:7-11 and you will get a better understanding of John 13:34 14:15 15:9-14. Then throw in James 2:8. Love is the driving force that holds Christians close to Jesus. What we do for the least of them we do to Him. The 10 Commandments and most of the other 300 laws of the Old were not about love. Choose Moses and his difficult yoke or Jesus. That is why Jesus could say that his yoke was easy and his burden light.

Getting back to your study, Did you actually tell us if it is possible to keep it?

The next subject in the study is the Sabbath. That would be very interesting to debate. I have no problem with worshipping on the Israelite Sabbath, but I do have a problem with those who believe they are "keeping" it holy or even the need to try. Its rules are not relative to New Covenant Christians.
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2008 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
In my opinion, most people do not understand the old covenant. When Israel arrived at Sinai, the covenant was given in these words:

quote:

"Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now there, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" Exodus 19:4-6).


In these verses let me make three points:

1. What God will do for His people is by the power shown in their deliverance from Egypt.
2. He gave them "my covenant" (repeated in the Bible 51 times). This covenant was made before the foundation of the world and was given to Adam and Eve and to Abraham.
3. These same promises are carried through to the Christian church in the new testament.

quote:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness unto his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).


The people responded to this with the words: "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do."

These were human promises. Subsequent events showed that they were without faith. It was this old covenant that is spoken of as the first, old, faulty covenant. It lasted just 40 days at which time the Israelites put on a rebellious heathen festival. Symbolically, Moses threw down the tables of stone.

When they broke the old covenant of human promises, they also broke the covenant of God. Moses instituted four intense intercessions with God to bring Israel back into the covenant again. It was God who again offered them the covenant (Exodus 34:10),

The historical old covenant lasted just 40 days. After their restoration to the covenant of God, and with the passage of time, the people began to look on the sacrifices, ceremonies, rituals, etc as the center and focus of their religion. They forgot the Redeemer promised in the sacrificial system and fell back into a legalistic old covenant mentality. This was dominant at the time of Christ.

The Ten Commandment law also had a preamble of grace. By the power of God to bring them out of Egypt, He would make the ten commandments alive in their experience. They were meant to be promises of what God would do by grace.

The ten commandments, the tables of stone, were kept inside the ark of the covenant, and were called "the covenant." (not the old covenant) It was by following the principles of the ten commandments that God would make of them "an holy nation."

And what about the new covenant, and the law of love? (later if we have time.)
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron, Just thinking about this statement:
. . . . "How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000. No doubt by which you mean people living perfect lives. Those people then being within the group identified as "you and me" somehow becomes the ones who prove God in the Great Controversy. What weren't the other who you acknowledge to be saved throughout history enough to prove the Grace of God sufficient?"

In my first statement, the key word is "primarily." Of course the Gospel IS about saving man and restoring all that was lost by sin. But primarily, it is about the Law of God which is eternal and on which the order of heaven is built. Only the lawgiver, Jesus Christ, could take the penalty of the broken law and restore mankind.

It is basic to a loving God that He will not abandon His creation. God "loved the world." When He finished creation, "He saw everyth8hg that He had made, and, behold, it was very good." This principle is repeated over and over again in the promises He makes through history.

Adam held dominion of this earth under God. When Satan usurped this dominion and became "god of this world" it was impossible for him to hold dominion "under God." God could have used His power and authority to "zap Satan, and Adam for that matter." Instead, in His mercy, He gave His Son to take the penalty of the broken law, and to give mercy and grace to save man.

So, it the primary focus on God? or on man? You cannot separate them but I believe that the primary focus is on the honor or God.
--------------------------------
Do the 144,000 represent people who live perfect lives? This is a hot topic with many. Many will say that it is impossible to keep the law of God. In thus saying they side with Satan in saying that God is arbitrary and unfair to make such a law in the first place.

Actually, people generally and Christians in particular keep the law at least on a superficial basis. When was the last time that you murdered someone? Picked someone's pocket? Took your secretary to Reno for the weekend? Christians do not do things like that. So where is it hard to keep the law?

Keeping the first four commandments show our love to God and accepting Him as Lord of our lives. Lacking this we are proud. The last six commandments show our love for our fellow man. Lacking this we are selfish. In breaking any of them we show unbelief. Thus the heart of the sinful nature is unbelief, pride and selfishness.

It is these three characteristics that make up the sinful nature. Only by grace can a man be lifted out of unbelief, pride and selfishness. Can this ever be done to perfection? Has it ever been done to perfection? These are questions for which we do not have the answer.

We do know that God's special promises are to the overcomer (see the messages to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3). See also Hebrews 12:2 where Jesus is pictures as the Author and the Finisher of our faith. Then read 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. Jesus will cleanse us from all sin, but we can never look at ourselves and say that we "have arrived."
-------------------------------
Where is Satan in all this? He is shown to be the "accuser of the brethren." When Joshua, the high priest, is brought into judgment (Zech. 3) Satan is pictured as being there to "resist him." What is Satan doing? He is saying that God has no right to save a sinner, clothed in filthy rags, like Joshua. But God removes the filthy rags, forgives his sins, and gives him new clean clothes.

In this God is showing that He will not permit Satan to have even one person who trusts in Him. Is grace sufficient to save? Through faith in Him, YES, it is.

Hubb
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
1. What God will do for His people is by the power shown in their deliverance from Egypt.
2. He gave them "my covenant" (repeated in the Bible 51 times). This covenant was made before the foundation of the world and was given to Adam and Eve and to Abraham.
3. These same promises are carried through to the Christian church in the new testament.

First point I totally agree with.

Second point, God may have formulated the covenant before the foundation of the Earth, but where is it said that it was given to Adam and Abe? God surely did make a covenant with Adam and Abe, but they were not nearly as complicated as the over 300 laws of the Israelites.

Why is it that all Jewish historians tell us the covenant was to them only and that Noah had was given a simple covenant. Why is it recorded in Deut 5: Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.
We are specifically told that It was Israel's covenant. And by the way, the fourth commandment there tell us that it was to remember their flight out of Egypt that the command to remember the Sabbath was given. So what really was written on the tablets of stone?

This leads us to the arguement as to why Gentiles would ever be subject to the Sabbath law because it is not our fathers that were led out of Egypt. You didn't comment on a previous passage I directed you to, it was 2Cor 3:
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! That ministry is the Holy Spirit working in our hearts promoting the law of love. The cold stones are forever in our past and are only a reminder to those who have not accepted the Grace of Jesus. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I don't know about you, but this seems like a pretty simple truth. I know it collides with what the prophet has written, so we have to choose what to believe. Mrs. White made grave errors in some of her writings as I have pointed to a few. How do we sort out which ones are fact and which ones are fiction? Can we trust her?

The third point is covered in my second response.{


Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Excuse me for butting in. Your answer is on the same tone as the one we are writing about.

Hubert wrote:
Keeping the first four commandments show our love to God and accepting Him as Lord of our lives. Lacking this we are proud. The last six commandments show our love for our fellow man. Lacking this we are selfish. In breaking any of them we show unbelief. Thus the heart of the sinful nature is unbelief, pride and selfishness.

This seems to be a cliché that many Christians use, but in reality the 10 commandments are not about love. They have to do more with obedience. They are mostly written in a negative tone. You shall not... They were laws and if broken could lead to some of the other supportive laws of the covenant, one being death. On the other hand the laws that Jesus gave all mankind are positive and when broken His blood covers them forever. Bob

Where there is life there is hope.
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Renie,

First of all there is no tithe in the New Testament church by any directive that I can make out. Secondly, we have a simple mission; relieve suffering humanity and spread the Gospel, which is forgivness for our sins and power/deliverance from them. If I am to listen to Paul after the counsel arrived at when the Jewish converts were insisting that the Gentile converts keep the OT tenets of the law, I can only come to one conclusion. In Acts Chapter 15 the Jewish converts insisted that the Gentile converts be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. There was a big "pow wow" amongst the elders and Peter related that the Holy Spirit had come upon the converts signifying their acceptance by God "purifying their hearts by faith" and why put a yoke upon them that "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear, but we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they". The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law. The consensus of the meeting was as thus: " Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood". Then they wrote letters to the other churches about the meeting saying " it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well". Paul repeats this again in Acts 21:25. That's it, and you will find out as you read from Pauls writings further on( Rom14, 1 Cor 8:4-9, 1Cor10: 23-33, Col. 2:16,20,21,22, 1Tim4:1-6.) that they were not to eat these meats not because they were unclean, but so that those who did consider them as so would not be turned from hearing the Gospel. God did not create these animals as unclean, but designated them as so, after the fall of Adam and Eve, for a time to be used as object lessons of self denial (did you know that pork is considered the most nutritious of the meats) in the war against the inclinations of our lower natures. When the sheet was lowered three times to Peter in Acts chapter 10, and "the voice" had instructed "what God hath cleansed, that call not common", it meant that the unclean designation was no longer in effect as to man or beast. That is why Paul could say "I KNOW AND AM PERSUADED BY THE LORD JESUS, THAT THERE IS NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF". For everything created before the fall "God saw that it was good".

Now, you'll have to forgive me for digressing a bit, but it was to make a point concerning tenets of the law, as was tithing. Tithing was tied into an enclosed Jewish religio/national economic system that involved much interrelated factors that involved giving and recieving upon certain criteria and levels within that nation that can not be applied to the universal New Testament church. And what was tithed was based upon the profits gained at the end of the year after all the other debts and demands were satisfied by those who met the criteria to pay tithe. Every third year the tithe was witheld by the thithee to use at his own discretion in relieving the burdens of the less fortunate, the stranger and the Levite. The Levites used this for their sustenance and the accomodations needed for the sanctuary service; animals and what not. They had no inheiritance, no land, nothing to own ( the church leaders of today do not fit this criteria, they own plenty). This was a good bar against corruption, however not foolproof, as we see by Matt. 21:12 when Jesus "overturned the tables of the moneychangers" etc. Deut.24 and 25 and also 1Cor. 9 say that the laborer whether for secular work or the Gospel have a right to derive sustenance for their labors ("shall not muzzle the ox"), but this is not a directive for tithe. It comes from voluntary offerings and whatever other labors they may make gain. Speaking of Paul, Acts 18:3 says: "because he was of the same craft, he abode with them (Aquilla and Pricilla) and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers". (Why, were people witholding tithe? No, there wasn't any more tithing.)

continued:
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's see some examples of how the money was handled, gained or used in the N.T. church. Acts 20:32-35: "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive".

Romans 15: 25-28: " But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain". (It doesn't mention him bringing any tithe to a Jerusalem church, central storehouse, only offerings for "poor saints")

1 Cor 16: 1-3 " Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by [your] letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem". ( No tithe being sent here either; there wasn't one.)

2Cor. 9:5-7 "Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as [a matter of] bounty, and not as [of] covetousness. But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2Cor. 9:12-13 "For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];". 2Cor. 9:15 " Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift. (GIFT, no tithe here either)

Phil.4: 10-19 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Where on earth was the tithe money? There wasn't any. It was all about sacrificial giving from the heart.) When we come into an experience where "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us"Rom.5:5, we will live to further the Gospel and relieve the suffering of humanity whereas much of it is do to a trickling down, a result of, the greed of the powers that be and those that fall under their influences.

Some quote Matt. 23:23 ( "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone".) to substantiate the claim that tithe is carried on in the N.T. church, but is it? No, These folks were not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah and Jesus hadn't died and rose yet in fulfillment of the law, therefore they were still under obligation to the ordinances of the law. We don't do that now.

continued


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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When Jesus cleansed the leper in Matt. 8:4, Mark 1:44, and Luke 5:14 he told him to " tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded". We don't do that now when we're healed, do we?

In Acts 16:3 Paul had Timothy circumcised as not to offend the Jews. They also, in Acts 21, shaved their heads for a vow for the rite of purification so as not to offend the Jews that had not accepted Christ's Gospel so that they would be able to approach them with it. We don't become circumcised or shave our heads according to the law today either. All these things, tithe and what not, were of Old Covenant Israel.

The tithing system is a barrier to those who need the Gospel the most. It keeps them away when they can't afford it. When and If the "poor widow", of Mark 12, who gave the "two mites" had an income of 500 dollars a year and all her living expences amounted to 498 dollars and she gave the other two dollars to the church ("all she had, even all her living") would she be accused of withholding tithe? The O.T. tithe being mandated in the N.T. church tends to let people into thinking that when they give the10 percent, that they can live like the world with the rest. They become fogged to the concept that it all belongs to God. When there is no minimum reqirement placed on our means and our hearts, through a close abiding with the Holy Spirit, become burdened for those who have not what we have experienced in the Gospel, we will be inspired to be productive with our efforts to gain wealth in order to help those in captivity to sin be set free. Isn't that what we're supposed to be living for? Do I disregard the obvious needs of the sinners around me because, this sinner, me, has spent what means would have been available on the false tithe, or am I ready to meet the needs of those on my path as was the good Samaritan. Am I to be involved in personally touching the hearts of poor or suffering or lost and wayward sinners or am I, a saved sinner, that hopes they make it because I dropped whatever power I had to be able to help, into the basket from the church pew? Maybe the gvt will give a hoot, they're a warm hearted, Gospel living, salvation message bearing bunch, not!

The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy that takes liberties that foster affluence, avarice, greed, and power and position that are not unlike what Luther recognized as the corruption in the church of his day which stood in stark contrast to the lowly Jesus and the self-sacrificing spirit of the church as recorded in the scriptures. These unsound liberties are an offence to the poorer sacrificing members and a corrupting influence to the membership on the whole. Just flip on the TV and hear the shameful bragging of the wealth that many evangelists live within and promise their members that they can have too if they keep pumping up the tithe treasury. It's called "prosperity preaching" and it appeals to a spirit of covetesness and idolatry, not holiness. You would think by the example of Jesus, that the leadership of God's church would set a closer example of self- sacrifice that the spirit would filter down through the masses and glorify God.

Why isn't there any tithe in the Cathoilic church today? They are the direct decendants of the N.T. church. Because, there never was any tithe after Christ. Believe me, if there ever was, they never would have discontinued it. They get their filthy lucre from indulgences that the decieved followers of the Roman Catholic Church pay to earn their own and their dead relatives salvation and freedom from purgatory. They get their other monies from free will offerings and donations because that's how it always was and still is, unless you preach a false doctrine.

THERE IS NO BIBLICAL FOUNDATION FOR TITHE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH

Cadge
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I applaud you Cadge. A very powerful posting.

What do we do with the myriad of writings Mrs. White had to say about the subject even some from her "I saw"? Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And if the Israelites could not get to the place where tithe was to be paid they could use the money to buy "whatever you like, oxen, sheep, wine, strong drink, anything your heart desires"
(Deut. 14:25-26).
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Cadge for your in depth study on tithing or, I guess, not tithing. I'm printing it off along with many other comments from the rest of you to give to my pastor at the next board meeting.

All of your comments have given me confidence to go forward. I feel assured that making my concerms known is a valid move..

I'm not usually a fighter. I sorta sit back and figure the Lord will take care of it, but sometimes He needs a little help.

renie
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, we're his hands and if it's to be, it's up to me, isn't it? Tne "Lord's Workers" aren't alwayss doing what they should, sad to say.

I would simply ask him that if we're Christians, where in the NT do we find any instruction or command to pay tithe? OTOH, if we're still Jews, why do we need Jesus, they got along without him didn't they?
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tithe in the New Testament:

Tithing was a system advocated in the Old Testament for support of the Levites. Apparently it was largely built on the barter system, and used in some cases for events that were specifically Jewish. Since there is no clear “thou shalt pay a tithe” in the New Testament does that mean that the issue was ignored? Are there principles from the custom of tithing that would be applicable today?

Malachi 3:8-12 is probably the clearest old testament passage about the tithe. In this passage, tithing is an obligation, and those who do not pay “tithes and offerings” are “robbers of God.” Tithes were to be brought into a “storehouse” which is not defined except to provide (“meat” or food) in the house of God. This would indicate that tithes and offerings were to support God’s work.

Are poor people expected to pay tithe? To specify one tenth of one’s increase as the tithe is a very fair system. There is no question but that the rich have much more “discretionary income than the poor.” But the promise is that those who pay tithe will be richly blessed. Maybe the poor need that blessing even more than the rich?

With this as a background, what can we say for the New Testament church? A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed:

quote:

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19),


Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid.

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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some will argue that the church is corrupt, has become an instrument of Satan, is lead by greedy politicians and should not be supported. Some who take this extreme view are actually trying to destroy the church. Some have taken the next logical step to establish independent churches – most of which have failed, and none have had more than a local influence.

How does God view the church? No question God is disappointed with the church. It contains too many unrepentant sinners and hypocrites (bad fish). But, the Bible pictures the church as the “bride” greatly loved by her Husband, Christ. Revelation 12 describes a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” And remember, this is the “remnant” the end time church.

To address specific questions:

Cadge has presented a rather extensive argument against tithing in the Christian church. Here is one sentence:

quote:

“First of all there is no tithe in the New Testament church by any directive that I can make out. Secondly, we have a simple mission; relieve suffering humanity and spread the Gospel,”


”No tithe in the New Testament” is not entirely true. The principle is there. This is shown in his next statement, to “relieve suffering humanity and spread the gospel.” How can this be done if the people do not support the church?


quote:

“The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.”


This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians.

Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant.

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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul discusses support of the church in a number of passages, none of which advocate tithing, yet none deny the principle. The principle of tithing is a very fair way to spread the burden of support equally among the members.

One final quote:

quote:

“The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy”


This is entirely a human supposition. It is true that tithe is sometimes misused. Does this mean that we should not pay tithe? Is a hierarchy wrong? The Seventh-day Adventist church was organized in order to support the world wide mission effort, which has been quite successful because of following God’s plan for support. The hierarchy of the SDA is much different from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church.

Can these things be corrupted? Yes. Have they been corrupted? To some degree, yes. Has God abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist church? NO! Is the hierarchy corrupt? A resounding NO! The ministry and the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church are largely Spirit-led God fearing men and women. Is there dead wood and bad apples among them? Probably. It is after all a human effort. But I fully believe that God has given a message to this church that He purposes to be given to the world, and that through this church He is preparing a people to see Him come again.
-----------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb,

Do you believe that all we own really belongs to God?

If so, our attitude should be to hold our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God.

The imperfect fellowship that I attend, does not advocate tithing, yet we are able to function and to support several specific overseas missionaries, Gospel for Asia and a county wide crisis pregnancy organization.

Well taught people give out of thanks, not out of a legal obligation.

Limiting our giving to 10% is kind of like limiting our worship to one day out of a seven day week.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Devon, Yes, I do believe that the Bible teaches that all belongs to God. Adam was given dominion of this earth under God. He, himself, also belonged to God, as do we. You have well said that we should hold all our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God.

The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings.

While SDAs strongly recommend tithing, it is not a legal obligation. From what I have heard only 30% of SDAs pay tithe. I have been on many church boards and a person's membership has never been questioned on the basis of paying tithe.

Incidentally, our worship is not limited to one day a week. In the sanctuary service there was the morning and evening sacrifice every day. We recommend the same in our church, that people worship God every day, and that all that a person does in business and pleasure be "done unto God."
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb,
By this statement you lead me to believe that you thought that I was saying that people should not support the church:

"”No tithe in the New Testament” is not entirely true. The principle is there. This is shown in his next statement, to “relieve suffering humanity and spread the gospel.” How can this be done if the people do not support the church?"



You must have missed this :

Deut.24 and 25 and also 1Cor. 9 say that the laborer whether for secular work or the Gospel have a right to derive sustenance for their labors ("shall not muzzle the ox"), but this is not a directive for tithe. It comes from voluntary offerings and whatever other labors they may make gain.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are a lot of good "principles" in the Bible. However, to make them obligatory does not change the fact that they are more like "suggestions."

There should be a better way of defining principles than making them doctrines.

From the "Fundamentals:"

"Tithes As one seventh of our time (the Sabbath) belongs to God, so does one tenth of all material things we acquire. Scripture tells us the the tithe is "holy to the Lord," symbolizing God's ownership of everything (Lev. 27:30,32). It is to be returned to Him as His own.

When God calls for the tithe (Mal. 3:10), He makes no appeal to gratitude of generosity....We tithe because God has commanded it."

There are no NT texts shown; all come for the OT. Is the OT the rule and faith for Christian practice or Jewish? All those rules were given to the Jews and never to Christians. Are Adventists Jewish/Christians?
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb said:

"A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed:"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19),


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And: "Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid."


My reply:

Hubb, if you want to make tithe for the N.T. church legitimate, you have to do it by the scriptures, not wants, hopes and suppositions. The "binding" has to be based on the Word. As I have shown, there is no scriptural basis for tithe in the N.T. church.

I'm sure that the Pope would be very happy to claim that rationalization that you've put forth in an attempt exhonorate Catholicism from a host of criticisms.

------------------------

Hubb quotes me:
“The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Hubb says:
"This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians.

Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant."

To which I say, huh?
The term "Torah" (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "teaching" or "instruction," sometimes translated as "Law,"[1]) most commonly refers to the text of the Five Books of Moses or Pentateuch. It may also refer to the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Cadge

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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are a lot of good "principles" in the Bible. However, to make them obligatory does not change the fact that they are more like "suggestions."

There should be a better way of defining principles than making them doctrines.

From the "Fundamentals:"

"Tithes As one seventh of our time (the Sabbath) belongs to God, so does one tenth of all material things we acquire. Scripture tells us the the tithe is "holy to the Lord," symbolizing God's ownership of everything (Lev. 27:30,32). It is to be returned to Him as His own.

When God calls for the tithe (Mal. 3:10), He makes no appeal to gratitude of generosity....We tithe because God has commanded it."

There are no NT texts shown; all come for the OT. Is the OT the rule and faith for Christian practice or Jewish? All those rules were given to the Jews and never to Christians. Are Adventists Jewish/Christians?


No one is knocking the benefit tithing offers the church to make it easier to operate. Taxes also allows us to enjoy the benefits of our citizenship. Taxes are not voluntary; tithe is not voluntary for the church's employees, but should be for all its members.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
"The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings."

Hubert, allow me to remind you again that only those who raised animals and produce were under the tithing law. The carpenter,shoe maker, tent maker and etc. did not pay tithe. I believe you are telling us that all were required to pay tithe. If you are going to follow the Old Covenant at least get it correctly. What makes you think the church can teach that all have an obligation to tithe when God didn't even require everyone under the law to tithe?

You quote scripture “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19)

I would be very careful using that bit of scripture to give the SDA Church a free hand at creating a modified tithing system. The SDA Church is very critical of the RCC for stating the above to justify how they conduct their church.

First of all the SDA Church claims that their modified tithing system is Biblical. We have proven that it is not Biblical. You have given no proof that it was a law imposed upon all Israelites. You have given no proof that it was ever paid in shekels. You have given no proof that it is a New Testament teaching. You surely wouldn't get very far with your arguments in a court of law.

Ellen White said it is the right thing to do, but can we trust her? She was sure wrong about Jesus pleading with the Father to come and be the redeemer after the fall. You even quoted the truth about the matter. Bob




Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cadge,
To comment on this statement of yours:

quote:

"Hubb, if you want to make tithe for the N.T. church legitimate, you have to do it by the scriptures, not wants, hopes and suppositions. The "binding" has to be based on the Word. As I have shown, there is no scriptural basis for tithe in the N.T. church.

"I'm sure that the Pope would be very happy to claim that rationalization that you've put forth in an attempt exonerate Catholicism from a host of criticisms."


You claim that there is "no scriptural basis for tithing in the New Testament." I have shown the following:
1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them.
2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing.
3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope. The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do.
----------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
You claim that there is "no scriptural basis for tithing in the New Testament." I have shown the following:
1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them.
Why not Hubert? Why did our forefathers divide the two? The old was for the Israelites only and the new is for all mankind. The old was a lot of tho shall nots and the new is love your neighbor. The old is a wonderful history with many great thoughts that can enhance our World today. The new introduces the Holy Spirit as our guide. The old uses the law of Moses. I could go on and on about the contrast. Get the point? It is not more of the same. Paul makes the point, without a doubt, at the Council of Trent.

2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing.
First of all Jesus and all the Jews were under the Old Covenant. What else could Jesus tell the Pharisees? The New Covenant was not ratified until the Cross after the old was fulfilled by Jesus.

It is not beside the point. Jews didn't pay tithe in coins and not all Jews paid tithe. If the church insists on using the Old Covenant modified tithing system, at least be brave enought to tell the flock that it isn't Biblical, but we are going to use it anyway. What the church is now doing is deceiving the flock.

3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope. The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do.
Hummm! Think about it Hubert. The SDA Church takes a few Old Covenant laws, incorporates them into its doctrines and they become canon. They leave almost all of the remainder of the laws and say they were nailed to the Cross. How different is that from what the RCC does?

There are no laws concerning the worship service. SDAs mimic the RCCs worship pattern, but modify it enough to kinda disguise it. They make the sanctuary a holy place and the platform the most holy. Again not from scripture, only from the RCCs. Tell me again that SDAs use the scripture "Whatsoever you bind........" differently than do the RCC. Bob


Where there is life there is hope.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, went to the church board meeting Monday night and the committee did what I thought it would. They stuck with the pastor.

My friend (who no longer qualifies as an elder since she is unable to pay a tithe) went with me.

We shared our concerns about the pastor presenting the names of tithe payers to the nominating committee. I mentioned some of the good information you guys had shared with me too. There was some shock that this could happen and some discussion as to the privacy issue, The treasurer seemed shocked. He said he didn't know what the list was for when he gave it to the pastor. Said he feels uncomfortable giving out any information. In the end the committee would not vote on my recommendations.

They were:

1. That the committee recommend that tithe not be an issue in picking someone for church office. And that the committee give that recommendation to next year's nominating committee.

2. That the treasurer not give out names of members and their tithe paying records, except to an assistant treasurer or an auditor.

When it came time to vote, all the members sat there with their heads down and the pastor, who was sitting at the end of the table, sat there looking over his glasses at everyone with his arms folder over his chest. HE HAD WON! My friend and I thanked them for listening and left.

In the end, it's all about the green stuff (money) and not about people.

I don't know what to do now. I should just leave and find another church, but some of my friends are in that church (they weren't on the church board). Maybe I will stay away for a month or so and see how I feel.

It's always hard to loose when you are fighting for a cause.

renie

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Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie,
You did good. Don't let this stuff ruin your friendships - then they will really have won. Hold your head up high and do what your heart tells you. Been there, done that.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Sirje.....thanks so much for your words. I need them.

I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given me. It always helps to know there are people who have been there and know how I feel.

Thanks for your friendship.

renie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene,
I have been through some church problems and have come to this philosophy:

Mistakes have been made, wrong actions have been taken. What should we do?

1. The church is not primarily about the pastor or even about the officers. It is about Jesus Christ.
2. Even when you are right and the leaders are wrong, do not leave the church. You can still worship God, and that is what church is about.
3. You can still attend the SS classes and fellowship with friends and encourage them.
4. You can still help others and witness in whatever way you choose.

Bottom Line: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

Please pardon my giving advice from the sidelines. I wish I could say that I have followed my own advice. In looking back on my experience, I wish that this is what I had done.
----------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, for what it's worth, I would go to the conference president (or write a letter) and tell him the whole story. If he doesn't answer your concern in a reasonable amount of time and satisfactorily, I would inform the union president.

This behavior is despicable. And when something is inherently wrong, to ignore it means that someone is willing to accomodate to it and essentially, put up with it. Otherwise, how do you feel if you haven't done all you possibly can to see that this doesn't happen again?

Think of the Catholic priests who were shunted from one parish to another because people didn't scream loudly enough. You will know what you should do, then follow your integrity.

I disagree with Hubb's statement:

Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

In the face of wrong actions, the failure to speak up is what eventually caused the Holocaust; it is what allows children to be molested; it allows people to steal from churches; it allows evil to continue when we have an opportunity to stop it. What is they say about good people who stand by and do nothing when they could change things?

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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am trying to point out when action is effective, and when it is not. If you do what Elaine says, you will be labeled a trouble maker and marginalized. I know, I have been through it.

Of course, you must speak up at the right times. Those times are when a wrong is within your sphere of influence. The criminal actions that Elaine speaks of must be opposed with every means at our disposal. I think you are right about those tithe lists, but those are not criminal actions.

When you have said what needs to be said, and the pastor and the church board vote against you -- the conference is going to side with the pastor and the board. So, then is the time to be quiet and pray.

Sometimes a wrong is so egregious that you have to move on. But there is a right time to move on. Be careful that you do not "cut off your nose to spite your face!" In some cases it is better to let some time go by, let the situation cool down. Then if in your best judgment you need to move on, you will not be considered to be pitying yourself.

Well ... I tank I say too much already!
-------------------------
Hubb
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You both, Elaine and Hubb state so many good points.

I'm inclined to agree with you Hubb. You are absolutely right that the conference and union presidents would commend my pastor for his loyalty. And I would look like a trouble causer.

I am going to have to take some time off from church . I need the time to decide what I'm going to do down the road.

renie.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there is anything the SDA church needs, it's trouble causers.

It's not virtuous to absorb spiritual abuse passively.

That's why the social system is so unhealthy - initiative is punished and passivity is rewarded.
Maggie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit -- in the lives of individual believers and in the church body as a whole. Issues of church administration tend to end up as power struggles and take our eyes off what it means to be a Christian -- to follow and be like Jesus Christ.

Let us not be distracted from that goal.
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Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Amen Maggie!!!

Hubb,

I'm not sure the Adventist church would recognize the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Anything that doesn't follow the status quo (meaning Ellen's teachings) is squashed like a pesky bug. But, carry on, and continue to see the church dry up, as hundreds of thousands of people have moved on, and shook the dust off their feet. New wine into old wineskins won't do.

Speaking of going to the conference president, is it possible that this is coming down from "on high"? Just a thought. Not that I'm excusing bad stuff from the pastor, but that is how it works in Adventism.


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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just out of curiosity do you have someone you know on the board who is in agreement with you. If so have him/her place the item and your recommendations on the agenda and next meeting ask for a vote. The Pastor as chairman should not be voting unless there is a tie vote.

Until they actually vote on this issue it is not over as long as you can get a board member to make a motion to vote on the recommendations.
New Protestants.com
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Post Number: 174
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too.

renie
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene, I have only followed briefly what Hubb and Elaine are recommending. I was threatened with censure on an issue, I considered right. If I didn't stay quiet or shut up on an issue I felt needed exposure, so I transferred my membership to another SDA church so I could speak freely. And Elaine and Hubb, I was ignored at local, conference, Union and GC levels, but the local municipality convicted an Elder of the local church in question of assault. Shame on the whole church system, I say, and I have moved on, after I got the conviction of this guy.
God is, therefore I think!
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The problems of small churches. We who are blessed to be able to attend larger churches do not realize how difficult things are in these churches. There is usually a clique that has run things for years and the pastor realizes that and so doesn't push things.

That may not be the reason, but from what you say, Renie, it appears that no one wants to cross the pastor, so if you want to change things it's going to be up to you. What have you got to lose? Your membership? Do you fear they'll disfellowship you or ostracise you?

The only thing for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. The pastor has been using the arrogance of power.
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Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Question:

How does the pastor know if people are paying 10%, 8.5%, or what percentage, unless he knows what their salary is? This is all so bogus and wrong!!!

Fear and intimidation are tools the SDA church has wielded very effectively from the beginning.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit....

The same could be said of the religious people of Jesus' time. Jesus had some choice words for them about their converts being "twofold children of hell," and all that.

It would hardly be fair to blame the converts, whose lives the Jews ruined, for the Holy Spirit not being poured out on the Jewish religion.

Likewise, I think it most unfair and unseemly for SDAs to blame whistleblowers, whom the SDA church has stonewalled, wounded and otherwise mistreated, for holding back the Holy Spirit.

It is very debased thinking, it seems to me, to try to silence people into submission with a smoothly delivered load of guilt.

You look for a Messiah who comes in and vindicates you to the world, like the Jews did.

Their money tables were overturned.

Those who call themselves Shepherds must bear all the exquisite responsibility that entails.

A person has to have a self to give that self to God.

People who have been stunted in their intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual growth by abusive social groups first need to take care of themselves and put themselves where they can heal and catch up with their own development.

They owe nothing to their abusers but to grow up and make the world a safer place, so that others don't suffer in the same way.

We can forgive and bless the past, but if we make ourselves mice, we can be sure the cats will eat us.

That said, may God bless all those on the Seventh-day Adventist path. May they all find what their hearts most desire.
Maggie
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too.

Well unless you are a member of the board you can't call for a vote. But if anyone on the board made a movement for a vote and it was seconded then they have to vote (it has to be voted on even if it is simply a motion to table the motion, if tabled they have to deal with it at the next meeting). If your church board is not following established board procedures they are in violation of SDA church procedures, that is they must have established rules for how a board functions, such as Roberts Rules of Order.
http://www.robertsrules.com/


Get a copy of the minutes and see what they say. You church may have bigger problems then just inappropriate distribution of tithe information. If that is the case you have to go to the conference administration. My guess is that they are not following proper procedures and the board is being manipulated by a Pastor who is acting improperly in his office.

New Protestants.com
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Post Number: 22
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renie, I want to say this in a kind way and still nail the fact that if the church were to follow the plan set forth in chapters 8 and 9 of 2 Cor you wouldn't be in this problem. New Covenant believers are to give out of their heart. There is no set amount, but where there is a need, because we love the Lord, we will rally to that need. Those who are more fortunate will be able to give larger amounts. Sometimes sacrifice is needed to support the mission of the church.

If churches would follow the plan set forth in the New Testament there would be no list of "faithful tithe payers". No one would ever know another persons giving habits.

The rule that only faithful "tithe" payers may be leaders in the church is sick, sick and more sick and only causes strife. Many are coerced into paying and giving that way is not out of love, the way the Lord would have us to give.

Instead of taxing, which is what the modified tithing system is, allow each one to give because they love Jesus and want to see the church fulfill its mission.

Our daughter is a teacher in the SDA system and she was giving some of her money to special needs. Like in your church the fathers found out because her recorded modified tithe didn't reflect her wages. She was told that she could no longer be hired if she continued to give her money to special needs. Coercion at its finest. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would like to remind you all that there is another side to the coin. Are there problems in the church, absolutely. But in this discussion it is being blown all out of proportion.

You need to realize also that people in leadership positions have to deal constantly with chronic complainers and real trouble makers. Because of the volume of these complaints they have little time to evaluate and deal with valid situations. And realize also that conference offices tend to have small staffs to deal with thousands of members.

If we were to really become political and accept the notion that the conference will solve all our problems, we would have to increase conference staffs ten fold and tax the members enough to make a tithe seem like pennies!

Hubb

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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Come on Hubb, that is like saying don't rely on the Conference Officials to know truth, because they don't have time to recognize it. Sheeeeeeeeesh!!!
God is, therefore I think!
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb we have in the SDA church one of the heaviest bureaucracies of any denomination to assume that they are simply too busy to actually do something for the churches under them is pathetic.
New Protestants.com
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Post Number: 178
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb...I'm probably feeling defensive when you really were'nt talking about me but I have to say in my defense that....

I've NEVER EVER complained to the conference about anything in the 64 years I've attended church. That's just not me.

This was just such an unfair and discrimiating policy I just had to step forward.

renie
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Post Number: 179
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron, I tried to get the committee to call for a vote but nobody would so I asked for a vote myself. That's when the clerk should have put the recommendations to a vote but she said NOTHING.

They simply didn't want to vote.

I could'nt figure out where to go from there so I just said, "well, I've tried to do the right thing so I'm going home."

I suppose I could have been more aggressive but I just was bummed and stumped. I spent the night, not sleeping, but thinking I should have done this or that, said something else or shut up.

The result was set in concrete. The members would not vote against the pastor. There really was nothing that could have changed that.....

Well, unless I could have had all you guys there with me. Things would have been a lot different.

renie
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ellen White created a loophole for you.

"Voluntary offerings and the tithe constitute the revenue of the gospel. Of the means which is entrusted to man, God claims a certain portion--a tithe; but He leaves all free to say how much the tithe is, and whether or not they will give more than this. They are to give as they purpose in their hearts." 5T 149
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Post Number: 76
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene,
I certainly do not blame you for anything. After all, a lay person is an amateur at these things. The pastor, who is a professional, should keep in mind that his first consideration is the souls of others -- even if they disagree with him. That is how Jesus was, He tried even in His trial and crucifixion to save every soul He came in contact with.

My comments were meant to be a form of "damage control." Events such as you have been through, will often lead to a decision that lasts a lifetime. Please don't let that happen to you.

Lift up your eyes. Think through the scenes of Jesus' trial, crucifixion, and His resurrection. In the light of the cross, the events of earth should pale into insignificance. And please do not take what I say as judging you. Whenever a person writes he is first of all writing for himself. These are things I need to remember, too.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
I think you have heard the saying: Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach others how to do. Those who can't teach, teach others how to teach.

Application: Too often when a pastor is just not making it as a pastor, where does he go? To the conference office! Let me quickly add that it is a minority of the personnel in the conference office who are pastors who just couldn't make it. But sometimes our problems arise when we are dealing with a person who doesn't know just what to do ...
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Username: Maggie

Post Number: 4880
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Events such as you have been through, will often lead to a decision that lasts a lifetime. Please don't let that happen to you.

Sometimes those decisions are necessary.

When I tried to report sexually predatory behavior of a State Conference President to the General Conference President, I was referred to the insurance person at Risk Management, i.e., I was seen as a "risk" to be "managed."

When I said I didn't want to sue, I was told the General Conference President was too busy to talk with me.

No one exhibited the slightest curiosity about what that State Conference President's name was, and I never told.

He later became a regional Conference President.

The rot goes to the core, or, as David suggested, the fish rots from the head down.

Even Sorensen knows this. You all know this, if you let yourselves.

Good luck fixing all this.

Telling people to be meek little lambs in a rotten organization like this...well...I've seen too much of the seamy underbelly of this church to buy that.

Maggie
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Post Number: 4882
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just think, for a moment, about all the adventures the hierarchy have embarked upon with your tithe money, and how you just bailed them out with still more tithe money.

Remind you of any current events?

Make yourselves mice and the cats will eat you.

You all know this, if you let yourselves.
Maggie
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Post Number: 4883
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


quote:

Tentatively admitting that it is possible that none of the funds loaned to Davenport will ever be recovered, Kenneth Wood states that if certain policies and principles had been followed by those in responsible positions this terrible embarrassment to the Church would not have occurred.

He writes - "ONLY when each member of a committee, board, or other group expresses his convictions freely, questions unsafe financial policies, protests unsound proposals, and is willing, if necessary, to cast a negative vote, will responsible church bodies deserve full confidence."

This is a laudatory observation, and some of us who in the past years have done so, know the results of this sort of upright behaviour.


But in this particular case, there is an ironical twist. In Southern California when the matter of the Davenport loans came up for discussion, and the interest payments were noted as delinquent, the Los Angeles Times (Aug. 9, 1981, IV-11) notes that Walter Rea and others on the committee did speak up, but to no avail.

Now one must ask - Was Walter Rea defrocked only because he gave an interview to a Staff Reporter of the Los Angeles Times regarding his findings relative to the writings of Ellen G. White, or were there some other underlying factors such as his protest involving the Davenport investments?

Will this be permitted to come to light should a full scale investigation be initiated by the General Conference?

-->It is known that the President of Southern California involved in the defrocking of Rea has been moved to the Presidency of the British Union Conference.<--

Promotion for affirmative reaction to the wishes of the hierarchy, and devastating action against the voice of protest is the rule of the thumb which has been administered over the years.

Now the Editor of the Adventist Review says only when this rule is reversed can the church entities deserve the confidence of their constituents.

http://www.questions4adventist.info/davenport_bankruptcy.htm


As I said...

Initiative is punished and passivity is rewarded.

You all know this if you let yourselves.
Maggie
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=14372&post=89686#POST89686

Did not anyone notice the confusion in this link? Ellen White says that you can make up your own tithe, and then decide if you want to give any more above it. If She believed that the biblical tithe was 10%, then by what authority does she claim to allow you to set your own? Then she goes on to say to give whatever you purpose in your heart. Why state it as a tithe at all then, because what she is saying in reality, when you add up the sum of her wording, is to give whatever you decide you want to.

So, it looks like this will be just fine: "2Cor. 9:5-7 "Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as [a matter of] bounty, and not as [of] covetousness. But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2Cor. 9:12-13 "For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];". 2Cor. 9:15 " Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift. (GIFT, no tithe here either)"

Renie, according to Ellen White, your friend should not be held to a 10% necessary/voluntary tithe to maintain her involvement in church doings unless the pastor is determined to disregard the authority of his prophet.


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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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The Lucifer Effect
Maggie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maggie,

I will defend myself to this degree: I am not and have not been passive. What I have observed is that laymen have very little influence in church administration. Recognizing this, I have to "pull in my horns" and make living a Christian life my priority.

I have never had to face the problems you state, and hope I never do. I have faced some, but in looking back, I could have handled it better. I have chosen not to think of those things now because I need to keep the faith and do all I can for my family.

The SDA church is NOT rotten to the core as you say. The SDA church is NOT the administration. I believe that the SDA church is the great body of trusting believers. They are NOT rotten to the core. Further, the leadership is not rotten to the core. There are many Spirit led wonderful people in leadership. There are also bad apples and a faulty administrative organization that is not able to correct itself. There is nothing I can do about this, and it isn't worth losing my soul over it.

As I said before, I can still go to church and worship; I can still study my SS lesson and teach when called; I can still sing the hymns; I can still witness to others; etc, etc, So even with the problems you detail, it does not prevent me from living a Christian life. And, please, don't let it prevent you from the Christian life.

Hubb


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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Hubb, what I said was not personal against you, and you do not need to defend yourself. I responded to a common SDA reflex to not rock the boat, which I don't hold anyone in particular responsible for. We're all in this together, even the hierarchy, even though I'm not in their church, I'm in the soup with them.

I have absolutely no doubts that you lead a fine Christian life, along with many, many others in your church, including my ex-husband.

There are also bad apples and a faulty administrative organization that is not able to correct itself.

Please watch this video, Hubb:

The Lucifer Effect

Best regards,
Maggie
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Mrs. White speaketh out of both sides of her mouth. The following sure doesn't sound like the previous paragraph we read.}

"Let those who have become careless and indifferent, and are withholding their tithes and offerings, remember that they are blocking the way, so that the truth cannot go forth to the regions beyond. I am bidden to call upon the people of God to redeem their honor by rendering to God a faithful tithe."--MS 44, 1905. CS 96.3

"According to the amount bestowed will be the amount required. The larger the capital entrusted, the more valuable is the gift which God requires to be returned to Him. If a Christian has ten or twenty thousand dollars, God's claims are imperative upon him, not only to give his proportion according to the tithing system, but to present his sin offerings and thank offerings to God."--4T 466, 467. CS 99.2

Before It Is Too Late

"It will not be long before probation will close. If you do not now serve the Lord with fidelity, how will you meet the record of your unfaithful dealing? Not long hence, a call will be made for a settlement of accounts, and you will be asked, "How much owest thou unto my Lord?" If you have refused to deal honestly with God, I beseech you to think of your deficiency, and if possible to make restitution. If this cannot be done, in humble penitence pray that God for Christ's sake will pardon your great debt. Begin now to act like Christians. Make no excuse for failing to give the Lord His own. Now, while mercy's sweet voice is still heard, while it is not yet too late for wrongs to be righted, while it is called today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."--R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896. CS 99.4

A tithe of all our increase is the Lord's. He has reserved it to Himself, to be employed for religious purposes. It is holy. Nothing less than this has He accepted in any dispensation. A neglect or postponement of this duty, will provoke the divine displeasure. If all professed Christians would faithfully bring their tithes to God, His treasury would be full.--R. & H., May 16, 1882. CS 67.2

Of all our income we should make the first appropriation to God. In the system of beneficence enjoined upon the Jews, they were required either to bring to the Lord the first fruits of all His gifts, whether in the increase of their flocks or herds, or in the produce of their fields, orchards, or vineyards, or they were to redeem it by substituting an equivalent. How changed the order of things in our day! The Lord's requirements and claims, if they receive any attention, are left till the last. Yet our work needs tenfold more means now than was needed by the Jews. CS 68.2


Would someone please show me where it says in scripture that Jews were to either pay the tithe in animals and/or produce or redeem it with an "equivalent". Am I overlooking something? If it isn't in scripture is Mrs. White adding to scripture and for what reason would she do that?

}The great commission given to the apostles was to go throughout the world and preach the gospel. This shows the extension of the work, and the increased responsibility resting upon the followers of Christ in our day. If the law required tithes and offerings thousands of years ago, how much more essential are they now! If the rich and poor were to give a sum proportionate to their property in the Jewish economy, it is doubly essential now.--4T 474. CS 68.3

Were the poor to give a sum proportionate to their property in the Jewish economy? Please, someone, show me where this is found.





Where there is life there is hope.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Hubb, Solzhenitsyn wrote in Gulag Archipelago,

The dividing line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being, and who is willing to destroy his own heart?

We're all in this together.
Maggie
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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And sometimes the powers that be are indifferent to the conditions and effects that their systems bestow upon those not in power even though their livelyhood is dependant upon their labors.

"How can you expect a man who's warm to understand a man who's cold? The cold stung. A murky fog wrapped itself around Shukhov and made him cough painfully. The temperature out there was -17; Shukov's temperature was 99. The fight was on." pg. 19 from Solzhenitsyn's book One Day In The Life Of Ivan Denisovich; about life in a Soviet Russian Gulag.

The story was really an account of the experiences of Solzhenitsyn,s own life as a political prisoner in Russia because he made mention negative comments about Stalin in a letter at one time. When he was a prisoner of the system he could do little about it, but when he was freed from it, he did all he could to expose it.

Cadge
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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene Longfellow noted: Darn it Ron...I found the rule on tithing and church office. It's in the 1986 Church Manual anyway. Under the chapter on tithe... page 135.

In the new, 2005 edition of the CM, this rule about tithing is still stated in Chapter 12; Gospel Finance. In spite of its oxymoronic title, this chapter is all about tithe (and zero about the Gospel).

Here the CM makes it clear that all church workers must practice tithe and set a "good example…in the matter of returning tithe." More than that; "No one shall be continued as either a church officer or conference/mission/ field worker who does not conform to this standard of leadership." See 164-65.

So it is still there, and the same point can also be found in the chapter about Church Elders as previously noted. This policy has always been active and in practice--but few knew it. The fact that many do not understand how the Denomination really operates is a tribute to the success of the SDA propaganda machine.

Up until about 1980, or 82, the leaders had most people fooled, but after that--not so much. They have been masterful deceivers all these years, but their time has come. Which is why there are so many angry former SDA's all over the place.

To be fair, I think the leaders deserve credit when due, and I think they have done an excellent job of deceiving millions of people with their propaganda. It's nice to know that they can do something right if they set their mind to do it? Too bad it has caused so much harm and wasted so much time and resources.

Irene sighed: It's a bummer but there it is. Thanks for helping me access the site.

The SDA church is so wrong about so much that it boggles the mind. Their tithe-based hierarchy is totally and completely against the principle and fundamentals of the Gospel. No Protestant Church can be set up this way and the SDA's have lost their minds to think that an OC and Roman Catholic organizational system is going to complete the Protestant Reformation. This is the most ludicrous and absurd proposition that I have ever heard. It makes no sense.

Who in the world dreams up this garbage?

The SDA's have lost their minds. Their entire system is nothing more than a corrupt fraud, even as their theology has been reduced to chaos and their eschatology to cultic irrelevance. If ever there was an organization that needed to repent and reform--it is the SDA's.

Irene said: Tom, thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Considering that you are probably right on your observations of the church organization, what in the world can an unimportant person like myself do?

Who said you were unimportant? Not the Gospel. Who knows what good you can do for the Kingdom?

For example, you can Pray, Protest, and Promote Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community. We can all do these things in our own way.

Thanks to the Internet, many singular voices can join together in order to move the Advent paradigm forward. I am convinced that had the Internet been around during the RBF debates, Glacier View could not have taken place. The facts would have come out then, instead of now, and Arthur White would have been ruined when he was alive to see it.

Irene asked: Go up the ladder? It looks like even you with your influence you can't get a hearing from the church. Have you ever been given an audience with anyone of importance?

No billion dollar religious hierarchy that claims to represent Jesus, and speak for God, will listen to anyone. This is far too much money, power, and delusion for humans to handle. Which explains why the SDA's have gone fully and totally corrupt.

So there is little that any one person can say to such a wicked bureaucratic monster that will have any affect. Neither law nor Gospel can reason with such arrogance, nor can there be any negotiation with evil. At some point something must give. There must be a showdown. Perhaps it will be a legal case or maybe it will be a well-publicized campaign to boycott the SDA hierarchy and repudiate tithe?

So it is not one person, but many people that must protest the dishonesty and corruption of the SDA's.

Yes, I have had a number of high level meetings at the GC over the years, and I can tell you than many agree that Adventist Reform is needed-- in private that is, --because few want to risk their employment. So they do as they are told. But like I said, the system is so wrong and so corrupt that it may not be subject to reform. It may have to be completely overturned, and a new form of Adventism developed. This is what happened to the RCC. Those that correctly protested the false doctrines of the church were forced to start their own church. This is probably how things will work out for the Adventists unless their leaders repent and reform.

Irene said: A lot of members just throw up their hands and start another church which sometimes works but a lot of the times doesn't. Are we stuck? Is there no hope?

I can't blame those that left or that tried to start their own churches. What else were they supposed to do? But the problem was that they failed to make the necessary theological corrections that were the root cause for the demise of the Advent movement. There was far too much ego and lust for empire building, and not enough study of the Word.

So the new so called evangelical SDA churches embarrassed themselves and their leaders like Richard Fredericks only made matter worse and more confused. Why? Because they had no credible eschatology, even as they trashed the Sabbath and the Advent Movement n the process.

What was the point in repudiating the Advent Movement? They came up with nothing better. Of course they adopted the SDA scam about tithe, even as these leaders set up their own little hierarchies to control.

They just exchanged one set of problems for another set. Little was gained and nothing improved. They wasted everyone's time. Even Dr. Ford had to withdraw his support from this confused group that had misunderstood the law and the Gospel, as well as church history and eschatology. (In fact, it was this collapse of the SDA evangelicals that triggered my Atoday interview with Dr. Ford, which has yet to be refuted by anyone).

At some point, those with the necessary gifts will step forward and start working to help the worn and weary Advent Movement come together. At some point honest leaders will stand up and move the paradigm forward, leaving the corrupt hierarchy behind. It is only a matter of time.

Irene said: Most of us, most of the time, give up. We don't want to make waves. We just want it all to work it's self out. We've afraid we will be working against the Lord and hindering His work.

Those in religious power are experts at making people feel guilty. This is how they control people. This is how they sell tithe and the IJ, etc. Guilt is also a featured part of the RC religion. But this is all wrong. The Gospel does not make sinners feel guilty. It does just the opposite.

The Gospel is the point of the church, and it is imperative that this doctrine becomes the controlling doctrine for everything in the church. Whatever violates the principles of the Gospel must be repudiated. Which means that tithe is gone, and so too the hierarchical system that it has created and supported all these years. Tithing is totally against the Gospel, and so too Old Covenant Sabbath keeping.

So all SDA's are going to have to get over their guilty minded fears about the law. They must get used to the grace of the Gospel, because if they don't, they will never make the transition from the Old Covenant Sabbath to the Gospel Sabbath, much less find Eternal life.

The Advent Movement is a marvelous paradigm, but without the Gospel, it is a cultic disaster. Adventism contains critical information about eschatology for the entire church. But it has gotten way off track and must make major reforms quickly and correctly.

I say again; The Gospel is the point of the church, and from this doctrine all else flows. That is why it is so important for the Adventist Community to embrace Dr. Ford and apologize to this great man that risked everything to bring them the Gospel and tell the truth about the Three Angels Messages.

Irene said: We're just afraid we will cause trouble.

Good. Cause trouble. This is what Protestants do! Protestantism comes from the word PROTEST. Which in the RCC world is synonymous for "great trouble." For those that understand the Gospel, there need be no fear of anything in heaven or on earth. Gospel Reformers are invincible and fearless, and you too can be one of them in your own way.

Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Matt. 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Matt. 10:27 “What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

Matt. 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt. 10:29 “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Matt. 10:30 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Matt. 10:31 “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Robert L. Shields said: While I haven't the foggiest when the time frame of tithing system was adopted by the church I do know that Ellen White put her stamp of approval on it through convenient visions.

Ellen White put her stamp of approval on many things that had to be changed; it's just that the White Estate forgot to tell us the truth about all this. They said she was never wrong and thus she never had to change any position, but they were lying. She did not have doctrinal authority and her visions were not the last word on doctrine, even as Bible Study trumped anything that she ever said or wrote.

For example, Ellen White put her visionary "stamp of approval" on the Sabbath starting and stopping at 6 O' clock. But she was wrong about that point for almost 10 years, even as she admitted to misunderstanding her own vision and making the necessary correction.

Thus the Battle Creek SDA's learned early on that Ellen Whites visions did not have doctrinal authority. J. N. Andrews proved that Bible Study trumps Ellen White all the time.

So it does not matter that Ellen White endorsed this or that position about tithe, (and she endorsed a number of different plans), her viewpoint is always subject to the study of the Word. THIS is the real SDA position, and it is the one that I operate under. I repudiate what the White Estate teaches about Ellen White and so too should all SDA's.

Here is a quote from Ellen White that speaks about how doctrine should be viewed. She does not take the position that SDA's are correct about their views on tithe or the IJ or anything else. Listen to the real Ellen White:

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation…

As we take up the study of God's word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin.

They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded. Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed…

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed. The genuine Ellen White.

Bob said: Today the church looks to her writings for their authority to continue this false doctrine. Where else can they look? Christian tithing certainly isn't Biblical.

The SDA church has been very dishonest about Ellen White and her writings. While they claim to use her as an authority for doctrine, they have actually repudiated her most fundamental positions, placing false views in her mouth and horribly misrepresenting her to the church.

It was never the position of Ellen White that she would have doctrinal authority for the church. She never allowed her words to be used from the pulpit or in the SS lessons.

The post Battle Creek church has irresponsibly misused her writings for their own self-serving purposes. The fact of the matter is that her writings cannot be used to support tithe or the IJ or any doctrine.

I should note that Ellen White refused to endorse tithe as the leaders wanted. There is a very interesting story about this that SDA's need to understand. It can be found in Jerry Moon's 1993 doctoral dissertation about "W.C. White and Ellen G. White," Published by Andrews University Press. It's about 500 pages and contains the history about W.C. White battled with President Daniels to allow his mothers unpublished materials to become published as she desired.

It also contains Ellen White's refusal to make a hard and fast statement about the doctrine of tithe that the leaders demanded. She never fully supported tithe the way the leaders thought she should. And now we know why. It has turned out to be a false doctrine, like so many things that the SDA's have adopted.

Continued
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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Bob said: If this were the only place Mrs. White blundered it would be enough to convict her of being something other that what the church has bestowed on her.

The Takoma Park apologists were wrong to promote EGW the way they did. They were even more wrong to hide her writings and misrepresent what she was saying. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. No SDA can rely on anything that they have ever published about Ellen White or church history. This is the real problem.

Robert L. Shields - Thank you Renie for your welcome. It has taken me a long time to get up the courage to write on this forum. One of my favorite friends is Hubert Sturgis.

Hub is a nice guy, but he is a hardcore, Old Covenant, SDA legalist. He is not here to learn the Gospel or embrace Adventist Reform. No, no. He is here to try and defend and promote Traditional Adventism. He has been so indoctrinated that he cannot help himself. I don’t think he will ever understand.

When the Judgment Day arrives, this cultic and deluded TSDA does not have a prayer. All his many good works will be worthless because he refused to embrace the genuine Gospel. This is the only thing that really matters when it comes to salvation, and poor Hub has made the wrong choice to bet his soul on the wretched SDA's. Pity.

Hubert F. Sturges said: Is paying the tithe a New Testament doctrine? First of all, we cannot separate the New Testament from the Old Testament.

Says who? Of course this can be done; and it has been done by the church long, long ago. That is why the Cannon was formed, and why the Bible is divided into Old Testament and NEW Testament. This is a very great and purposeful separation that seems hard to miss. Besides, it's a little late for the SDA's to pretend otherwise. They have no right to revise history in order to try and make their cultic delusions fit.

Hub quoted some texts and said: These passages indicate that God expects His people to support the church.

Of course the church must be supported by the people, who else would be expected to support it? The question is what type of support system did the apostles set up? Did they set up a hierarchical tithing system? Or did they set up a doctrine of voluntary giving and sharing, along with a congregational and independent chain of house churches?

We don't have to guess. The book of Acts tells the story about how the church was set up and financed. And guess what? Tithing played no part whatsoever. Neither did the apostles own or control any of the local churches. They never set up a central church that was to be the "storehouse" for anything, much less tithe. The SDA organization, with its arrogant and outrageous claims, is a complete farce. They are so far away from NT doctrine and principles that it is stunning to behold.

I suggest that all SDA's read the Bible for themselves instead of paying attention to self-serving and delusional SDA propaganda.

The NT is full of information about the Gospel and the church, and thus it is easy to understand that the apostolic church did not practice tithing. The story of A & S in Acts 5 is proof positive that the church did not tithe. Thus, the doctrine of voluntary giving was given a dramatic seal of approval in the church. And Great fear fell upon the church when they understood how serious this doctrine was intended to be.

Acts 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

Acts 5:2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

Acts 5:6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

Acts 5:7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

Acts 5:8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.”

Acts 5:9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.”

Acts 5:10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Today, the SDA church has "agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test." They have allowed "Satan" to fill their hearts "to lie to the Holy Spirit" and to promote false, Old Covenant doctrine in order to set up an anti-Gospel hierarchy. They are playing with fire, and there is no doubt that they will be burned.

Those that lie about church finances are in great danger. This is the point of the A & S story, as well as the point that tithing in the church is a total myth. SDA's should be thankful that God has overlooked their stupidity about tithe so far, but if I were them, I would rush to run from this foul doctrine that has no place in the church.

Those that claim God requires the members to pay tithe to the SDA church leaders are following in the footsteps of A & S. They also thought it was fine to lie about church finances and spin things for their own self-interest. But they were made examples of so that the church would understand not to play games with church finances. The SDA's need to pay close attention.

Today, the doctrine of tithe is a lie. All those that stand up and promote this fraud--in the name of God-- are fortunate that an insulted God has not struck them dead. Tithe is a wicked and false doctrine that was banished from the church along with circumcision and a separate priesthood.

Those that promote and practice it should beware of trying heavens patience. They will end up sharing eternal damnation with A & S; the poster couple for all that would defy the apostles about church finance.

The SDA's have lost their minds to think they can make up whatever doctrines they want. In fact, they are the world's greatest hypocrites because they attack all others for their false doctrine, but see no reason to remove their own self-serving delusions. Sunday Worship is far less sinful that what the SDA's promote with their grape juice Gospel and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping and tithing.

Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

The SDA's are blinded by false doctrine and corruption. They have zero right to correct anyone about anything. They need to repent, not proselytize or defend their many errors.

Hub said: The details of paying a tenth of one’s income are from the Old Testament. To say that this is just for Israel or just for the old covenant raises some problems:

Everything in the NT comes from the OT. The OT is the context for the NT. So this proves nothing about tithe. The only problem here is that you are trying to defend TA. So you double-talk and misstate the issues. Disgusting.

The TSDA's are despicable; they are just like the Circumcision Party. Paul could not reason with these cultic legalists and no one today can talk any sense to them either.

Pay attention Hub and all TSDA's: There is no such doctrine as tithe in the New Covenant church. It is an impossible construct that goes against the fundamental principles of the Gospel. It never happened. And until you learn how to read the Bible properly, you are a very lost man.

Tithe is an Old Covenant doctrine that supported the Levitical Priesthood and the Temple Services. After the cross, all of these things were swept away by the church (and then by the Romans). Judaism was no longer salvific, or even in existence after 70 AD, they had no priests or Temple after that time. This was the end of Old Covenant Judaism.

The church was built on Judaism and came out of Judaism. But unlike Judaism, everyone in the church was now considered a priest. There was no special class of religious leaders for anyone to pay tithe to. Nor was there a non-priestly category of people to pay tithe to the priests-- because all are priests.

So how can there be tithe? The concept does not work in the NT.

Moreover, while there was an OC earthly Temple or storehouse to bank the tithe, the church never had such a Temple or storehouse system. Why? Because the New Covenant Temple are those that embrace the Gospel. The people are the church. They are the New Covenant Temple.

1Cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1Cor. 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1Cor. 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2Cor. 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

So the whole concept of tithe will not work in the church. Nor did the apostles ever try to make it work. This SDA claim that the apostles taught the doctrine of tithe in the early church is utter nonsense and fabrication. It never happened, nor could it ever happen. There is a very different system clearly established on the record for all to see--and it is not tithe.

Voluntary giving and sharing replaced tithing in the church!

Shame on the dishonest and wicked SDA church for trying to pretend that tithing is a Gospel doctrine taught by the Apostles. This is such a monstrous lie that it rivals the massive Sunday fraud that the SDA's make so much noise about.

Why is it fair for the SDA's to cling to their long list of false and absurd doctrines, but yet the other churches cannot? Such hypocrisy is hardly from the Gospel.

Until the SDA's give up their long list of false doctrines, including hierarchical tithe, the IJ, and their grape-juice Gospel, just to name a few, they have no right to complain about anyone else, for anything else. The Sunday Sabbath is not near as wrong as tithe, the IJ, and the grape juice Gospel of the SDA's.

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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Hub said: 1. The Christian church of today has become the Israel of the Old Testament (Romans 11) with all the promises and responsibilities.

Wrong. The Church represents the Israel of the NEW COVENANT. All SDA's need to get their heads out of the Old Covenant. They are living in the past. Christians only live in the NC.

Hub said: 2. The Old Covenant was a short term affair lasting about six weeks and never supplanted the everlasting covenant.

Wrong. The Old Covenant is Judaism. This religion correlates to the ancient kingdom of Israel, which lasted much longer than 6 weeks. In fact, this Country was recently resurrected and now holds a key place in world affairs. You need to better understand some theological terms my friend because you are embarrassing yourself.

Hub said: 3. There are some details in church administration for which God gave the church authority – which even heaven recognizes.
quote: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19.

Wow! I don't know if you realize it or not, but this is the text that the RC's turn to when they get caught making up doctrines. They claim they can do whatever they want because of this passage…and I guess the SDA's have embraced the same interpretation for themselves.

But they are both wrong. Only the Word has any doctrinal authority for a Protestant. So it doesn't matter how high Rome builds their Temples, or how fancy the SDA graphics are designed, unless their doctrines can be clearly supported by the NT, it is all worthless nonsense and garbage.

Hub said: Here are some quotes from the Church Manual, 16th edition (the newest). A. “The gospel plan for the support of the work of God in preaching the everlasting gospel is by the tithes and offerings of His people.” p. 151.

It is blasphemy to speak false doctrine in the name of God. Tithe represents Old Covenant law, not the Gospel. There is no such thing as Gospel tithing. Nor does the CM have doctrinal authority over anyone. The SDA's have made fools of themselves.

Hub said: B.“all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury.” p. 153.

This is propaganda for the uninformed. The word "faithful" does not fit with tithe paying in the church because there is no such doctrine. Thus "faith" in Old Covenant law has nothing to do with something that is so against Gospel faith.

Those that pay tithe are not being faithful to the Word of the Apostles or the Gospel. They are misguided legalists that are taking positions against the Gospel. They are cursed for being faithful to wolves.

Hub said: C. “Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have a part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.”“ p. 154.

Tithe paying is a test of church employment and office holding in the SDA church. Only those that pay tithe can be a pastor or hold any local or hierarchical church office. Thus the SDA's have created two separate classes within the church. Which of course is forbidden by the Gospel. So the false SDA doctrine just goes on and on and on…

James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

Those that pay tithe automatically become the personal "favorites" of the hierarchy, elevated and placed in charge of all others. They are given status, office, and privilege because they pay tithe. This is all wrong.

Besides, it is blasphemy to promise blessings in return for embracing false doctrine. What kind of talk is this? I see this nonsense on TV where the televangelist --like Osteen-- is promising prosperity to those that believe his false Gospel. What a bunch of garbage. But the SDA's play the same game with this "pay tithe and get blessed" scam.

Hubb said: D. “The treasurer should always remember that relations with individual members are strictly confidential. The treasurer should be careful never to comment on the tithe returned by any member or of the income or anything concerning it, except to those who share the responsibility of the work.” P. 62

The treasurer is obligated to give such information to the pastor. Just as the pastor must blackball all those from church office that do not pay tithe. This is how the hierarchy controls the church, and weeds out those that are not loyal and compliant. Thus the church boards are made up of those that are the most brainwashed and manipulated, as they become tools for the hierarchy to control their blasphemous organization.

Hub said: From the above I would gather that paying the tithe is a responsibility of the member and the recommendation of the church.

We see things differently. I think any one would be very foolish and stupid to pay tithe to any church, much less to the double-talking Gospel hating SDA church. On what basis do they deserve any money from the people?

Why should Adventists pay for false doctrine, corruption, and gross mismanagement? That's a bad deal. All the leaders and pastors should be fired not indulged so that they can continue playing church and wasting everyone's time and money. You can be sure that the Pioneers would clean house if they could, even as Paul would curse the SDA's for becoming like the "foolish Galatians."

Hub said: I believe it (tithe) has good New Testament support as outlined above.

Hub, I can always depend on you to stand up and protect the hierarchy. You have yet to learn that propaganda is not the same as truth. Which is why you did not show any Christian paying tithe in the apostolic church.

You didn't give one such text because there is no such text in the entire NT. However, you need at least two passages showing that tithe paying was normative doctrine for the church, but you have come up with ZERO.

Matt. 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

2Cor. 13:1 EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

1Tim. 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Heb. 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

How can SDA doctrine be established on nothing? There are zero witnesses to the practice of tithe in the church. ZERO! Even as there is much evidence to show how the church was actually financed. Those that can read should be able to understand the truth of this matter, while those that prefer myth will carry on with their wicked delusions.

How can the lack of evidence in the NT lead anyone to conclude that there is "good support" for tithe in the NT? What kind of doubletalk is this? The TSDA's are not able to think or reason clearly. They live in a make believe world where things are as they want them to be. They are blind and cultic by choice.

Hub said: Also, as we pay tithe, God will bless us and more than make up all that we give to Him.

What does the word "also" mean? As if you made a previous point that was worthwhile. You have made no such point. You are still trying to make one that will stick, and now you fallen back on this tired legalistic myth that amounts to bribery. Pay tithe in order to receive a reward. Pay tithe and be blessed with profit.

This is legalism, pure and simple. No wonder the SDA's love this anti-Gospel doctrine and have built their entire system around it? It fits very well into their Old Covenant confusion, even as it proves to all that they do not understand the Gospel.

Hub, you need to explain to me why you think God will bless you for following false doctrine? Why do you think he will be pleased with anyone that has supported a system that has deceived millions about the law, Gospel, and the Spirit?

You are fortunate that God does not view you like A or S. He made examples out of them so that the church would understand how serious this new system of giving was meant to be. But A & S thought it did not matter. They thought they could bend the rules and who would care?

The doctrine of tithe in the church is a man made doctrine. It is nothing more than an excuse to steal from people and control them in the name of God and Jesus. It is an old trick for mortal men to claim that this or that is "sacred duty." This is how the pyramids were built, and many other useless things that claimed to represent the will of the gods.

NT Tithe is a false doctrine. Period. It has no support from Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Which is why there is not one witness to this fictional doctrine in the entire NT. This is because it is not the duty of anyone in the Church, nor is it "sacred."

It is a colossal religious scam for the uneducated and gullible. Let all be warned away from this blasphemous fraud, and the wicked wolves that promote it.

Robert L. Shields said: Yes Hubert, Matt. 23:23 makes my point. First remember Jesus was born under the law. He was talking to those under the law. The Pharisees were bringing their tithe, not of money, but from the land. They grew their tithe. Never are we told to pay tithe in shekels. From this we glean that only those who grew crops or animals ever paid this tax.

Correct. Jesus was not teaching the church to pay tithe in this passage.

Bob said: Now you contend that there is no break between the Old and New. That will make a great debating discussion at another point. If perhaps you are correct then those who believe in supporting the Levites with tithe should pay it as God instructed, not with money.

How can anyone say that the OT is just like the NT? If that were the case, why did the Jews go berserk against Jesus, Peter, and Paul? Why did they repudiate the Gospel? The NC is very different from the OC and for SDA's to pretend otherwise is beyond absurd.

Bob said: Another point is that not all Israelites were farmers. Those who were not, didn't pay the tithe because they had no crops nor any animals. Your idea is diametrically opposed to what God ask the Israelites to do.

Gospel finance cannot include tithing of crops or money. Which is why the apostles set up another method.

Bob said to Hub; Your church asks everyone to pay the tax. Yes, I say it is a tax because it surely isn't/wasn't given freely. It was part of the same law that SDA's claim ended at Calvary.

This is a very good point. The tithe was a National tax, and it was meant to support the established religion of the State, which was Judaism.

However, the Levitical priesthood was banished from the church, along with the Temple sacrifices and rituals. Now everyone was a priest, and Jesus was the High Priest, in heaven. There cannot be two classes of Christians in the church, those that pay tithe and those that receive it. This is an abomination.

So tithe does not fit with church doctrine. Nor did the apostles ever try such a stunt. The SDA's need to repent for what they been teaching and practicing. It is more wrong than following the fraud about Sunday worship.

Bob said: Do you see my point Hubert? The New Covenant in Jesus gives us a much better plan for supporting the work of saving souls. It is giving from the heart.

The Gospel is free to all. Consequently, that freedom must extend into the matter of church finances. Which is why Paul says that Christians "MUST" be free to determine their amount of giving. Our response to the Gospel must be voluntary, uncontrolled, and unencumbered.

Consequently, there can be no 10% tax, also known as tithe, placed on any Christian by any earthly, religious system. There is no such doctrine, and anyone that says otherwise is committing blasphemy against heaven, the Word, and the Spirit. In fact, the Gospel prohibits a hierarchy in the church, with or without tithe. Thus both the RCC and the SDA's have a system of church organization that is against the Gospel.

Bob said: Far be it from me to try to convince those that give 10% of their money to the cause of God that they should not be doing that. What I am concerned about is telling the flock that they must give it to be in Grace with God and the church. This is definitely a false doctrine.

The doctrine and practice of tithe in the church represents very false and very wrong doctrine. Everyone should be warned away from this dangerous scam that empowers men to rule over others and thus control the church with false doctrine.

Anyone that claims this doctrine is "sacred" has cut themselves off from the Gospel, because tithe is a legalistic, confused, and wicked fraud that is the opposite of sacred church doctrine.

God has told no Christian that it is their duty or obligation. It represents a false Gospel in the church just like ritual circumcision in the 1st century. Neither of these Old Covenant doctrines can be practiced in the church because they are both against the Gospel.

Those that submit to the slavery of tithe paying, are separated from Christ. The Gospel will be of no benefit or use to them.

Read the following and replace the word circumcision with "tithing;" Then you might understand how bad this false doctrine is for the church.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive (the doctrine of tithing) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who (pays tithe) receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

To pay tithe is to enter into an Old Covenant relationship with God that is non-existent today. The Jewish God can only be accessed through the New Covenant.

Those that follow Tithe and embrace the IJ, thinking that their law keeping is part of the Gospel, are heirs of the Circumcision Party that made life hard for the apostle Paul. Thus the TSDA's are false Christians and Pretend Protestants, even though they think they are the best of all Christians.

Beware Traditional Adventism and any that embrace this very false and dangerous religion. Beware.

Matt. 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Bob said to Hub: We must differ as to what the Gospel contained Hubert. My understanding is that we are under the Gospel of Jesus and the Israelites were under the gospel of Moses. We can't serve both.

The TSDA's have a very deficient and wrong Gospel. It is the same gospel as the Circumcision Party. It is a blending of the Old Covenant with the New, which forms a wicked and fatal hybrid.

Bob said: I will choose Jesus. He fulfilled the law of Moses with the over 300 laws and they were nailed to His Cross.

Jesus fulfilled and successfully obeyed, both the ceremonial and moral law. His obedience and righteousness is imputed to all that acknowledge his death and resurrection for their sins. Eternal life is granted because of their Gospel faith in the mercy of God, --not by their law keeping or their faith in the law.

Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph. 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Both the Circumcision Party and the TSDA's do not believe that anyone is saved without law keeping. They do not believe that JBF is all that a sinner needs to gain Eternal Life. They claim that Santification and obedience to the law is also part of the salvation process. They repudiate Paul's Gospel.

Hubert F. Sturges addressed "Tithe in the New Testament:" Hub said: Tithing was a system advocated in the Old Testament for support of the Levites.

In Judaism, tithing was part of the LAW. It comes from the Torah. There were no other options. So what is this talk about tithe being "a system advocated" for the Levites? That is the wrong word. It was the LAW for all the Jews. There was no way around it. It was part of a religious system to support the Temple and the Priests.

Hub said: Apparently it was largely built on the barter system, and used in some cases for events that were specifically Jewish.

Wrong. It was a religious tax on the state of Israel. The tithe was used to support the Priests who ran the Temple Services.

Hub said: Since there is no clear “thou shalt pay a tithe” in the New Testament does that mean that the issue was ignored?

How could the apostles possibly avoid dealing with church finance? They could not, and they did not. They set up a system of giving and sharing, even as they repudiated tithe. If the SDA's ever took the time to read the NT, they would realize how foolish they are to promote myths.

Hub said: Are there principles from the custom of tithing that would be applicable today?

Tithe was part of Old Covenant law keeping. It represents Law, not Gospel. It is the opposite of voluntarily, Gospel giving. So forget about tying to find some excuse to keep practicing what is wrong and false. Tithe is not a legitimate New Covenant doctrine. Period.

Those today that embrace the law, have fallen from grace. They have become like the foolish Galatians. The practice tithe is essentially the same as embracing ritual circumcision in the 1st century. It is not a valid New Covenant practice, even as it carries the double curse of Paul found in Galatians.

Hub said: Malachi 3:8-12 is probably the clearest Old Testament passage about the tithe. In this passage, tithing is an obligation, and those who do not pay “tithes and offerings” are “robbers of God.” Tithes were to be brought into a “storehouse” which is not defined except to provide (“meat” or food) in the house of God. This would indicate that tithes and offerings were to support God’s work.

No one disagrees that the Jews were under a legal system that required tithe paying to support the Levitical Priesthood, and Temple sacrifices, etc. If you want to establish tithe paying, in any form, in the church, you must find the necessary apostolic teaching on this point. And this is what you have failed to do. Malachi was not an apostle, nor did he live in the NT era.

Where is the apostolic support for tithe?

Hub said: To specify one tenth of one’s increase as the tithe is a very fair system. There is no question but that the rich have much more “discretionary income than the poor.” But the promise is that those who pay tithe will be richly blessed. Maybe the poor need that blessing even more than the rich?

Stop the double-talk. This is not about fair or unfair, but about understanding the difference between the law and Gospel. Tithe is part of Old Covenant law, not New Covenant Gospel. This is not an opinion, but a theological and historical fact. That is also why there are no examples of any Christian paying tithe in the NT. NOT ONE! ZERO.

Hub said: Some will argue that the church is corrupt, has become an instrument of Satan, is lead by greedy politicians and should not be supported.

This was the position of the apostles against the Jews. And the Protestants against the Papacy. So it is nothing new, and very correct. Church history proves that the church has often gone corrupt.

Moreover, in the LM, Jesus says that the last church is the worst church, and that they have everything wrong. So who is going to argue with the apostles, Reformers, and even Jesus himself? Not me.

I know that if the SDA church does not repent and reform, they should not be supported by anyone.

Hub said: Some who take this extreme view are actually trying to destroy the church.

This is what the Jews said about Jesus and the apostles. That is why they sent him to the cross because they were fearful that he was going to destroy Judaism. And that is also why they persecuted the church.

The Papacy also accused the Protestants of trying to destroy the church, and so they waged war against any that questioned their authority or doctrines.

The LM is also warning that the church will be destroyed if it does not repent and reform.

So what is your point?

Hub said: Some have taken the next logical step to establish independent churches – most of which have failed, and none have had more than a local influence.

The first group to gain independence from their wicked religious leaders were the Christians. Good for them. This was the will of God. Thus the independent house churches of the 1st century gave birth to the Christian Movement. This massive movement has more than a local influence as you suggest.

The Protestants were also successful at establishing many independent denominations that still stand to this day.

So I don't know what you are trying to say, but it make no sense. God was behind the many reformations that have taken place in the church. He is not pro-hierarchy as you assume. He is the opposite.

Hub said: How does God view the church?

As individuals. When two or three come together in his name, that is the church. He does not view the church as an organization or denomination. Nor does he have any favorite denominations, except for the Jews.

Hub said: No question God is disappointed with the church. It contains too many unrepentant sinners and hypocrites (bad fish). But, the Bible pictures the church as the “bride” greatly loved by her Husband, Christ. Revelation 12 describes a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” And remember, this is the “remnant” the end time church.

Sorry, Hub, you need to read the LM. This is where Jesus describes the Remnant church. It is not a pretty picture.

Hub said: Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support.

Of course tithing was part of the OC. And so too was the Ceremonial laws and the Temple, and the Priests, etc. What is the matter with you? The TSDA's need to stop making things up. They live in a world of denial and myth that is astounding to behold.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Rom. 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Rom. 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

Hub said: It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire Old Testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant.

I hope you are a better doctor than you are a theologian. You really don't know what you are talking about. The Old Covenant is Judaism. Both the moral and ceremonial laws are part of Judaism. You are the one that misunderstands because you are trying to make everything fit with TA. But it will not work; it makes you look like an uneducated and cultic fool.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hubert F. Sturges said: Paul discusses support of the church in a number of passages, none of which advocate tithing, yet none deny the principle.

WRONG. Paul explicitly denies the principle of tithing and so too does Peter. For example, have you not read the following>

2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Hub said: The principle of tithing is a very fair way to spread the burden of support equally among the members.

Tithe in the church is false doctrine. Period. So no matter how hard you try to sneak it in, it will not fit. The issue has zero to do with fair or not fair. Tithing represents Old Covenant, hierarchical law keeping. It has no place in the church. It represents forced giving--especially for those that work for the church. It represents "compulsion" and law keeping that develops two classes of people in the church.

Hub addressed this issue that “The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy.” Hub said: This is entirely a human supposition. It is true that tithe is sometimes misused. Does this mean that we should not pay tithe?

It is a fact that SDA tithing has created a bureaucratic, top-heavy hierarchy that has persacuted the Gospel. The Jews created the same kind of system. Thus is was the High Priest that killed the Messiah. Why? Because a religious hierarchy and the Gospel are not compatible.

No one in the church today should pay tithe. In fact, when they do, it is nothing more than a public declaration that neither the tithe payer nor the receiver understands the Gospel.

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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Hub said: Is a hierarchy wrong?

Absolutely wrong. If you have to ask, you are not a Protestant. Nor do you understand the Gospel teachings of Jesus. Pitiful.

Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

In Christian teaching, the leaders are to be servants--NOT MASTERS.

So on what basis do the servants demand the tax of tithe? They are not Levites, nor do they have any theological advantage over anyone else. On what basis do they get to demand money and authority from all others? There is no basis.

Hub said: The Seventh-day Adventist church was organized in order to support the world wide mission effort, which has been quite successful because of following God’s plan for support.

The Advent Movement was Protestant. It was not hierarchical, nor did it observe tithe paying. The SDA church was not set up as a hierarchal model. It became one over time as it became more legalistic. And tithe was the doctrine that facilitates this hierarchy that has now gone corrupt for all to see.

Moreover, when I read the LM, I don’t see any accolades for the SDA's. Did I miss them?

So who says the SDA's have been a success? They have been a horrible failure. Who are you kidding?

Hub said: The hierarchy of the SDA is much different from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church.

Wrong. They are both religious hierarchies. They both own and control all the local churches and the clergy works for them,-- not the people. They both claim to have doctrinal authority over their members and they both have extra sources of doctrine.

The RC's have Mary, while the SDA's have Ellen White. The RC's claim to be the true church and so too the SDA's. The RC's have endless scandals and corruption, and so too the SDA's. On and on the comparisons go, even to the point where the SDA's persecute those that bring them the Gospe.

They both make up false doctrine and promote legions of legalistic myths and traditions, even as they both misunderstand and repudiate the Gospel. They are very much alike, which is why they are both condemned in the LM unless they repent and reform.

Hub said: Can these things be corrupted? Yes. Have they been corrupted? To some degree, yes.

Organized religion always goes corrupt. This is what happened to the Jews, then the Christians, then the Protestants, etc. This is the pattern of man. Power corrupts. Which is why the Founding Fathers set up the government the way they did. They knew that hierarchical models only ended up abusing the people.

Hub said: Has God abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist church?

The LM makes it clear that the SDA church must repent and reform or heaven will abandon them. This is the point of the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church. Every church is declared to be wretched and awful, blind and naked. They will all be abandoned IF they don't repent and reform.

Because the SDA church has not responded to the LM, or to the Gospel, they are in great danger. Who knows when heaven will make good on their threats? It may already be too late for the SDA's?

Hub said: Is the hierarchy corrupt? A resounding NO!

The head of the church disagrees with you. The LM declares that all denominations are corrupt and wrong at the end of time. The SDA's are not excluded. Sorry.

Besides, I remind you that the last GC President was removed for corruption, even as the one before that, Neal Wilson, allowed the White Estate to run wild and deceive the church about Ellen White and church doctrine, which in turn caused great schism.

The SDA church is a billion dollar disaster. It is a completely mismanaged and dishonest organization that has deceived and angered millions. Its religious product is so full of myth and false doctrine that few support this brand anymore.

Even the health message has been lost long ago. The SDA denomination is a train wreck. It is rotten and corrupt to the core. It claims to speak for God, and yet it speaks against the Gospel and persecutes any that dare challenge its hierarchical authority and illegitimate power.

Hub said: The ministry and the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church are largely Spirit-led God fearing men and women. Is there dead wood and bad apples among them? Probably. It is after all a human effort.

The leadership of the SDA church is as wrong as was Peter and James about the Gospel. They are laboring under the double curse of Paul to the Galatians.

Hub said: But I fully believe that God has given a message to this church that He purposes to be given to the world, and that through this church He is preparing a people to see Him come again.

What is the message? To obey the law better? To practice Old Covenant tithing so that one can pass the IJ? The primary message of the church is the Gospel. The SDA's have failed to understand and embrace this doctrine.

This is their great sin that is destroying them for all to see. Unless they repent and reform, they are doomed

Hub summarized his pro-tithe points. Hub said: I have shown the following: 1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them.

While the NT is based on the OT, there is a very great and necessary separation between them in every Bible. The words "Old" and "New"-- which are opposites, prove the point. Thus, every Christian Bible has this clear separation for all to see, and it is absurd for the SDA's to deny the obvious.

However, this is their specialty. They are the world's greatest liars and religious con men. They can't tell the truth about church history or theology, because if they do, their many false doctrines crumble in a heap. So they have to take these wild and irrational positions that try and manipulate the Bible to say what they want it to say. They are despicable liars and blasphemers for all to see.

So Hub is showing us that he is part of a legalistic cult; he is not a Protestant whatsoever, and neither is any SDA that supports Traditional Adventism.

Hub's mind is not his own, he has handed it over the Arthur White for programming years ago, and he refuses to seek the necessary help to free his mind and save his soul. So be it.

Pay attention all TSDA's: The separation of OT law and NT Gospel is a fundamental definition of the Protestant Faith. Those that blend the Two Covenants together are following the theological model of the Judaizers and the RCC.

It is a pity that the SDA's have repudiated the Protest Faith. But this is what they have done. They are not Protestant, much less honest. They are doomed if they do not repent!

Hub said: 2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing.

The text in question shows that Jesus endorsed Judaism. He was NOT imposing the tithing of herbs and spices on the church, much less circumcision, etc. The SDA's are making fools of themselves. They speak like the indoctrinated Mormons or JW's. Hub, you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your mind to be so abused by the church.

All TSDA's need professional help. They don't realize how warped, confused, and illogical their minds have become. No one should doubt that propaganda, guilt, and mind control are very real in the SDA church.

Hub is a perfect example of someone who has handed his life over the SDA's. He can only see what he has been trained to see. Which is too bad for him, because those he allowed to mold his mind were blind to the Gospel. Thus the blind have led the blind into great trouble…

Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Hub said: 3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope.

The RCC uses the false doctrine of Apostolic Succession as an excuse to make up their own rules and preach a false Gospel. The SDA's use the fiction of tithe as their source of power and spiritual authority. Both doctrines are absurd and delusional. But they both work to deceive in a powerful manner that is stunning to behold. They are both against the Gospel and must be repudiated by the true church.

Hub said: The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do.

This is true. So why have the SDA's promoted so many false doctrines that are not allowed by the Apostles? Tithe and the IJ both come to mind, as well as this blasphemous joke about grape juice being used for the Eucharist.

So the SDA's have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to false doctrine. They have lots of it.

Neither the RCC nor the SDA's promote the Gospel Story correctly. They have each set up a false, hierarchical system to force people to believe lies that are against the Gospel. They both have legions of false doctrines and they are both condemned to hell by the LM if they do not repent and reform.

In conclusion, there is no defense for tithe in the church. There is not one passage in the entire Bible where any Christian is shown paying, receiving, or storing tithe. There is not one apostolic command or suggestion to pay tithe, even as there is opposing instruction and practice to follow another method of financing.

So the SDA's are wrong once again. They use the doctrine of OC tithing in the church more than anyone else. Their entire organizational structure is dependant on this false doctrine that has created an evil hierarchy, as well as two different classes of members, that makes war against the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.

There is no escape for the SDA's. Tithing is so wrong and impossible that no rational or sane Christian can defend it. It is a false and dangerous doctrine that is against the Gospel. Those that practice it have chosen the Old Covenant law over the Gospel. They have been tripped up in the same way as the foolish Galatians.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive (the doctrine of tithe) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who (submits to tithing) receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those SDA's that pay tithe, embrace the IJ, and drink fruit juice at the Lord's Supper "have fallen from grace." Their Gospel is false, and their hope of eternal life futile and delusional. Which is why the LM demands that the wretched and blind SDA's "zealously repent."

Continued
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Tom Norris (Tom_norris)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene said: Well, went to the church board meeting Monday night and the committee did what I thought it would. They stuck with the pastor.

No surprise here. The church board has submitted to the authority of the hierarchy. They are committed to do what the hierarchy wants, not what the members think should be done, or what the Bible says should be done.

Understand that the Pastor represents the hierarchy that owns the local church. He is there to enforce the rules for them, baby sit the congregation, and collect the money. He is in charge of the local church on behalf of the hierarchy and everyone must play only by the house rules or get out. These rules make certain that only those that submit to the authority of the hierarchy, --by paying tithe, --can hold any church office or work for the church.

These are the fundamental rules that determine how the SDA church is managed and controlled. Which explains why it is so poorly managed. The practice of false doctrine hardly qualifies anyone for church management or a seat on the board. But yet, that is the baseline test for the SDA's. The blind are truly leading the blind in the SDA community. Which explains why the SDA's are in a ditch.

Let all understand how things work in the SDA church. There is no room for Reform by anyone, about anything, much less tithe--the most sacred and important of all SDA doctrines. Not even Dr. Ford challenged or spoke against tithe. Even though he knows it to be a false doctrine, he was trying to make a larger point about the Gospel that would lead to the removal of tithe as well as the hierarchy.

But the leaders knew where Dr. Ford's Gospel could lead. This is what they were really worried about. It was always about their power, authority, and control. Which was in great jeopardy if the Gospel became understood within the Adventist Community.

This is why the leaders took such Machiavellian actions against Dr. Ford. This is why they would not listen about the IJ. They knew it was only a matter of time before their whole system was exposed as a wicked fraud that is against the Gospel. So they tried to wipe out the memory of Dr. Ford and Glacier View so that they could continue to fool and mismanage the church. But they failed.

Dr. Ford could not be silenced, and thus the Adventists heard the Gospel, and now it has exposed not only tithe, but also a whole host of false doctrines that must be repudiated along with the evil and corrupt hierarchy.

The sad thing is that the truth does not matter any more to the SDA's. It is money, control, and doctrinal authority that they want. They crave an Empire to feed their egos; they need tithe to finance their wicked ambitions. If any Pastor dares refuse to pay tithe or to promote tithe, he is terminated. Because this is the most sacred of all SDA myths. This is the source of their arrogant and false power.

So the very fact that your pastor is employed means that he is an avid tithe payer. In fact, he has made a pact with the hierarchy to uphold this blasphemous fraud. Thus he is not about to lose his source of income over the fact that tithe has no apostolic support. Much less that your friend cannot afford it. That is just too bad for her and for the apostles. Everyone must play by the rules of the SDA hierarchy about tithe or else. SDA pastors work for money; the truth does not matter so much.

Irene said: My friend (who no longer qualifies as an elder since she is unable to pay a tithe) went with me.

This is not an issue about "not being able to pay tithe." Rather, it is an issue because tithe in the church is false doctrine. One that has developed a corrupt hierarchy that is destroying the Advent Movement.

The primary doctrine of the church is the Gospel.

However, Tithe paying in the church is against the Gospel.

Tithe is the opposite of grace; it represents law.

So tithe is obscuring the Gospel in the SDA church. Tithe is a false doctrine just like the Sunday Sabbath or the Secret Rapture or Santa Claus. THIS IS WHY IT MUST BE REPUDIATED.

No SDA pastor really understands or supports the Gospel. If they did, they would not pay tithe to anyone, or embrace the IJ, nor pretend that fruit juice is part of the Lord's Supper. They are indoctrinated pretenders and hired hands, empty suits with large egos that have no knowledge of the Gospel.

The fact of the matter is that the poor in the church must be cared for before the leaders. This is what the Gospel teaches. But the SDA's teach the opposite; they say that the hierarchy comes first before the needs of all others. They have set themselves up to be taken care of first and always, and in so doing, have repudiated the Gospel.

Matt. 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The pastor and church board have no idea what the Gospel means or how it is to be lived. They are blind guides…

Irene said: We shared our concerns about the pastor presenting the names of tithe payers to the nominating committee.

Like I said, the issue is not about privacy, but about the false doctrine of tithe and its disastrous ramifications for the Advent Movement. The issues should be about how tithe is against the Gospel and the freedom of those that are in Christ.

Irene said: I mentioned some of the good information you guys had shared with me too.

Tell your pastor that he is welcome to come online and try to defend NT tithing. I would be glad to explain to him how absurd and impossible this doctrine is. But I will understand if he is too busy. Tom Norris does not treat wolves very kindly, and I dare any of them to show up here and try to defend their self-serving heresy.

Irene said: There was some shock that this could happen and some discussion as to the privacy issue, the treasurer seemed shocked. He said he didn't know what the list was for when he gave it to the pastor. Said he feels uncomfortable giving out any information.

This is typical. They always pretend to be shocked when people find out about such abuses. But it is standard procedure that happens all the time.

Irene said: In the end the committee would not vote on my recommendations.

Of course not. They don’t even have the power to make such changes to the Church Manuel. While both of your motions make some sense, the issue goes much deeper. Tithe is wrong. It is false doctrine. It is not part of the Gospel or the church.

If the SDA's do not soon tell the truth about the absurdity and impossibility of tithe, they are doomed.

Irene said: When it came time to vote, all the members sat there with their heads down and the pastor, who was sitting at the end of the table, sat there looking over his glasses at everyone with his arms folder over his chest. HE HAD WON! My friend and I thanked them for listening and left.

You had no chance. The hierarchy won before the meeting was held. They own the property and pay the pastor. They are in total charge, you, the member, have no say in anything of consequence.

Irene said: In the end, it's all about the green stuff (money) and not about people.

It is all about false religion that controls the gullible minds of men and women. The SDA church has gone corrupt. The truth does not matter. Money is the driving force for everything they do and say.

Irene said: I don't know what to do now. I should just leave and find another church, but some of my friends are in that church (they weren't on the church board). Maybe I will stay away for a month or so and see how I feel.

Every church and denomination in Laodicea has gone corrupt and evil. This is one of the signs of the last days. One that the SDA's somehow missed? So don't think there is a ready solution for any disappointed SDA. There is not. It might be some time until a new and functional Adventist organization rises from the ashes of the present disaster.

But for now, you should demand that the SDA church tell the truth about the Gospel and stop promoting false doctrine. You should demand that the Pastor repudiate tithe and anything else, like the IJ that cannot be supported from the NT. You should let the entire church know that tithing is a false doctrine and so too is a hierarchy. You should try to lead a reformation in the church over doctrine.

Perhaps others will catch on and demand reform.

At some point the Adventist Community is going to have to stop indulging false doctrine and the non-stop dishonestly of the SDA leaders. There is no reason for grown adults to allow themselves to be so abused, manipulated, and controlled. While millions have left, there must be a better strategy. The Advent Movement needs REFORM, not abandonment.

Irene said: It's always hard to loose when you are fighting for a cause.

The cause of the Gospel was greatly facilitated by the many that lost their debates with the authorities. Thus the martyrs lost the battle but won the war and gained Eternal Life.

Matt. 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matt. 5:12 “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


Matt. 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Matt. 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

Matt. 5:15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Sirje Walkowiak said: You did good.

Anyone that stands up to challenge the authorities over doctrine has done a good thing. This is what Jesus did, and so too the Apostles. This is also what the Reformers did. This is what PROTESTANTS do. It is the mission of the church to promote truth in an evil world.

However, you didn't exactly present the 95 theses to the church board, but you did challenge some long held tradition. Good for you! This is a start. But the issues run much deeper. The church is all about the Gospel, and tithe is against the Gospel. This is why it must be repudiated. It is the enemy of the Gospel.

Sirje said: Don't let this stuff ruin your friendships - then they will really have won.

Act from Gospel principle. Better to be friends with heaven than with hypocrites on earth.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

Luke 12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

Luke 12:53 “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Those "friends" that want to defend and follow false SDA doctrine, need to be replaced with others that don't.

Luke 21:12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:13 “It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.

Luke 21:14 “So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;

Luke 21:15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.

Luke 21:16 “But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,

Luke 21:17 and you will be hated by all because of My name.

Luke 21:18 “Yet not a hair of your head will perish.

Luke 21:19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Sirje said: Hold your head up high and do what your heart tells you.

Remain humble and follow the Word. Follow the Gospel teachings of the apostles and do what they tell you. Don’t be fooled, your heart is not as reliable as the Word of the apostles.

Irene said: I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given me. It always helps to know there are people who have been there and know how I feel.

Millions of SDA's have come to the realization that the SDA's are teaching false doctrine about tithe and all else. You are hardly the first to wake up and understand that things are not right in the church. In fact, you are a little late coming to the party because this schism started in 1980, after Glacier View, and as you can see--it still goes on.

Hubert F. Sturges said: Irene, I have been through some church problems and have come to this philosophy: Mistakes have been made, wrong actions have been taken. What should we do?

Whenever the TSDA's turn "philosophical" there is trouble in the land.

What were the Jews to do when Jesus the apostles pointed out their mistakes and errors? They were supposed to repent, reform, and embrace the Gospel. But they did the opposite. They dug in their heels, killed their Messiah, and attacked the Gospel. Let's see what advice you have on this point?

Hub said: 1. The church is not primarily about the pastor or even about the officers. It is about Jesus Christ.

The church is primarily about the Gospel, as understood through the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Those that misunderstand the Gospel, also misunderstand Christ, and in fact, embrace a false version of Jesus. This is what every Laodicean church and denomination has done, including the SDA's.

Hub said: 2. Even when you are right and the leaders are wrong, do not leave the church. You can still worship God, and that is what church is about.

If the members have caught the church leaders promoting false doctrine that is against the Gospel, and the leaders refuse to repent, why should anyone stay in such a wicked and dangerous environment? Such advice would have prevented the formation of the church, and stopped the Reformation. Why would you make such an absurd comment?

Answer: Because you are brainwashed by the SDA's. You speak like an employee of the church.

Any church that refuses to correct its false doctrine is not a real church anyway. This is what the LM is saying. Those pretend Christians that refuse to repent are not considered legitimate followers of Christ. Any church that they control is no church at all. They are pretenders.

No Christian should tolerate, ignore, or embrace false doctrine in their church. Period. Those that do are as guilty as the leaders that promote this garbage.

Hub said: 3. You can still attend the SS classes and fellowship with friends and encourage them.

Who wants to attend a propaganda meeting? What is the point? The point of church fellowship is to meet with those that also embrace the Gospel. When few understand the Gospel and the leaders attack it at every opportunity, how is this Gospel fellowship? It is no such thing. Wolves and sheep are not to be mixed any more than law and Gospel.

Hub said: 4. You can still help others and witness in whatever way you choose.

Ha! Witness to what? That the SDA church does not understand the Gospel? That their leaders are not worth following or obeying? The SDA church should be ashamed of itself for what they teach and how they behave. They are doomed unless they repent.

Hub said: Bottom Line: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

WRONG. You speak like a fool. Hub, don’t you ever read the Bible? How can you speak the way you do? Jesus and the Apostles teach the opposite of what you are saying.

Gal. 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Matt. 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Matt. 16:11 “How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Hub, where in the world do you get your theology? It is awful. You don't have anything correct. Every time you open your mouth, out comes false doctrine and absurd religion. You, like all TSDA's, need to repent and reform your theology. You are clueless about the Gospel and the teaching of the NT.

Hub said: Please pardon my giving advice from the sidelines. I wish I could say that I have followed my own advice. In looking back on my experience, I wish that this is what I had done.

You don’t know the Gospel, so your advice is worse than awful. You are not fit to instruct anyone about Protestant theology, neither is any TSDA.

The bottom line is that the SDA church needs reformation. Every doctrine and policy must be re-examined. Those that can't be established by the Gospel must be repudiated and removed. The fraud of tithe paying in the SDA church should be the first false doctrine to be stopped. Let all SDA's PROTEST and BOYCOTT this absurd and evil doctrine that has no apostolic support.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How do people today, far from an agrarian economy that existed in Israel's time, construct a tithe based on the "increase"?

Wasn't it first the practice for families to live off their own produce, or trade for what they did not have? This was long before coins were used, and everything was bartered.

An "increase" would imply that what remained, or the profit AFTER their own family's needs had been met, that a tithe of their "increase" should be paid.

In today's economy, most families do not have an "increase." After their living expenses there is often nothing left. Besides, they must put away a savings or IRA to care for their retirement years when they can no longer produce.

How many of us have heard preachers from the pulpit telling everyone they should pay a tithe, yet the preacher's salary was regular and certain, while many of the members may have living "hand-to-mouth" and barely eking out an existence.

Those in business NEVER pay tithe on their gross receipts, but only after there is a profit after deducting all the expenses of maintaining a business. How does an employed person calculate a tithe if not on the same basis: what remains after the expenses of maintaining a household? That would only seem fair, wouldn't it?

Of course, that is only true if one believes that the tithe is mandated for Christians. Hubb has totally failed to show that the CHRISTIAN church was ever told to tithe. The remark of Jesus was to the Jews, who lived under the Law of Moses.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hub is a nice guy, but he is a hardcore, Old Covenant, SDA legalist. He is not here to learn the Gospel or embrace Adventist Reform.

No, no. He is here to try and defend and promote Traditional Adventism. He has been so indoctrinated that he cannot help himself. I don’t think he will ever understand.

When the Judgment Day arrives, this cultic and deluded TSDA does not have a prayer. All his many good works will be worthless because he refused to embrace the genuine Gospel.

This is the only thing that really matters when it comes to salvation, and poor Hub has made the wrong choice to bet his soul on the wretched SDA's. Pity.



OK, then, if Hubb's goin' to hell, I'm going with him, even if by the miracle of grace I don't have to.

Feel free to accuse me in the Judgment of being worthy of burning because I supported him.

You have it in writing right here:

If Hubb's going to hell, I'm going with him.

How could I be happy in a heaven without Hubb???

Nope. Deal me out.

Maggie
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maggia...I'm with you. Don't want heaven without Tom, Hubb, or any of you guys.Or JR even.

Hey guys... I spent some time this morning listening to two terrific cds by Marshall Rosenberg, titled 'Speaking Peace...Connecting With Others Through Nonviolent Communication.'

These cd's are for family custody mediators but he brings up something you guys will agree with.

He brings up how to deal with gangs. Immediately I thought of big city steet gangs or prison gangs.

I was just shocked when I heard him say that we deal with gangs every day. Not just street gangs,and prison gangs but church gangs, financial gangs, corporate gangs, political gangs, educational gangs. It's all about the 'gang' concept. Groups become enforcers in order to keep people with the group and loyal to the group. Gangs have very rigid rules for membership and the members have to prove their loyalty through their actions. Isn't that the church?

He went on to say that there are things that can be done to fight injustice within the gang, but that one has to often be prepared for the long haul. It was such a new thought to me. Doesn't change how difficult it is to deal with but does explain a lot.

renie

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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Yay, Renie!

Anybody else want to sign up to go to the flames with our dear Hubb?

We could all sign a petition - God would see it, wouldn't She?

All violence is the result of people tricking themselves into believing that their pain derives from other people and that consequently those people deserve to be punished.
--Marshall Rosenberg
Maggie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Username: Lijhakim

Post Number: 79
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, It's time for a little fun. Here are some "off the wall" quotes from Tom Norris:

quote:

"poor Hub has made the wrong choice to bet his soul on the wretched SDA's. Pity."


I'm sure glad that Tom is not able to implement his premature judgment. Do I "bet my soul," you bet. However, I bet my soul on what the Bible says and in my trust in Jesus Christ. I happen to believe that the SDA church is correct in their doctrine, and that is why I belong. Tom, how much will you put up in this bet?
------------------------------------

quote:

"Hubert F. Sturges said: Is paying the tithe a New Testament doctrine? First of all, we cannot separate the New Testament from the Old Testament.

Says who? Of course this can be done; and it has been done by the church long, long ago. That is why the Cannon was formed, and why the Bible is divided into Old Testament and NEW Testament. This is a very great and purposeful separation that seems hard to miss. Besides, it's a little late for the SDA's to pretend otherwise. They have no right to revise history in order to try and make their cultic delusions fit."


The Canon of the scripture was formed about 200 ad. It was not inspired in all its details, but is useful. I believe that it was simply a recognition of what people generally thought was inspired.
-------------------------------------

quote:

"Wrong. The Old Covenant is Judaism. This religion correlates to the ancient kingdom of Israel, which lasted much longer than 6 weeks. In fact, this Country was recently resurrected and now holds a key place in world affairs. You need to better understand some theological terms my friend because you are embarrassing yourself."


Tom, you and many SDAs are a bit confused about the Old Covenant. Here are some considerations:

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. John 3:16 speaks of the Father who "gave" and the Son who came to redeem mankind. This was a covenant made between Father and Son before Creation. It is the everlasting covenant. Also called "my covenant" 51 times in the Bible. There are elements of the "new covenant" also found in this covenant.

This is the covenant confirmed or ratified when Jesus died on the cross. The covenant was held in faith up to that time, then became a fact that we can look back to. The everlasting covenant arches over to 1 Peter 2:9 and Revelation 21:3 "and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God."

There is only ONE covenant of redemption.
There is only ONE Jesus Christ who came to save.
There is only ONE source of grace to change the life.
There was only ONE covenant made between the Father and Son before Creation.

This was not the old covenant. The old covenant was a formal promise of the people to obey the law. It was not bad, but was faulty and lacking in faith. It is impossible for men to add or to detract from a covenant made in heaven. Like Abraham, we must "fall on our faces" and believe.

This is a big subject. I have offered what I believe in www.everlastingcovenant.com if you are interested.

The bottom line is that "God so loved the world" that He would go to any lengths to redeem and to sustain it. Jesus has said, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Username: Lijhakim

Post Number: 80
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maggie and Renie,
Thank you for those kind words.
Believe me, I don't deserve it. When Tom says I am "hard nosed" he is just scratching the surface. As for being a tSDA -- I hope so. That is a compliment.

But don't think about the flames. That place is going to be plenty crowded. There is plenty of room in the Earth made New. Even for Tom -- the fact that he responds in such detail indicates that he is thinking and that the Holy Spirit is working on him. God has a place for him.
------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If God is gonna burn anyone, He can burn me too.
Maggie
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, SDAs have been brainwashed into believing what they do. We are lucky to have been able to see Adventism for what it really is and escape its clutches. Our responsibility is to present the facts and allow the Holy Spirit to move people. It is not to attack individuals.

I admit that it has been years since Hubert and I were face to face friends, but I know people of character, ones who loves the Lord and are fine examples of a real Christians. Hubert fits that bill.

If he and other Adventists are willing to debate some of the SDA beliefs, I will gladly do so in the hope that it will plant seeds that the Holy Spirit will water and help them to finally cling to the simple plan of salvation.

Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, do you not believe God made a special covenant with Israel and Israel only? Do you not believe He included in that covenant laws concerning how the keepers of the Sanctuary were to be supported? Do you not believe that the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8 is a better covenant than the one given to Israel?

None of the covenants God made with man take away the plan between the Godhead for the salvation of mankind before the foundation of the World. The plan for Jesus to save mankind (the plan of salvation)was not joint covenant with man.

The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was completely conditional. If you will I will. They didn't and He didn't. That covenant of over 300 laws failed to keep the Israelites from sinning and it had no power to cover those sins. All was symbolic. The covenant Jesus ratified at the Cross will never fail. It is the real thing and really, fully, covers our sins. The covenant of Grace is all I need. Trying to mix covenants is only confusing and is not being faithful to Jesus.

Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert, it's good to know that there are other former SDAs who have seen the light and that Christians are not bound by Law of Moses.

If one spends more time in the NT, which is the scripture written for Christians, while the Hebrew scripture is for the Jews, it is impossible not to become convinced that we are no longer to live as the Jews but walk in the light of grace and freedom that has been given us.

All of Paul's letters, and Hebrews and the other NT scriptures are written to the new Christian church. Most all of them were written after the fall of Jerusalem, and from that date forward, there is absolutely no record of the Jerusalem church (Jewish-Christians), but only Gentile Christians.

Paul outlines in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Colossians his wishes and direction for the Christian church. There was no Christian church until after the crucifixion. It was founded by Paul. Jesus ministry was exclusive with the Jews and he gave the principles in the Sermon on the Mount, but he changed not one whit of Judaism; it was Paul who gave new directions to the followers who later were called Christians. The new church was born at Pentecost when all races were accepted; before that, no one could worship as a Jew until he had accepted circumcision--which was the initiation into Judaism. That is why there was such a disagreement with the Jewish Christians who wanted the Gentile Christians to be circumcised: Their laws required circumcision for anyone who wished to obey the Jewish Law.

Adventists have attempted to mesh both Judaism and Christianity with the result that it is neither fish nor fowl--neither Jewish nor Christian. Adventists select certain Jewish scriptures (while eliminating many) as being a requirement today, but in so doing, they negate the plain directives given by Paul who established the Christian church. It can't be both ways, which is why their doctrines are so terribly confusing for a Bible student, and most difficult, nigh impossible to explain or rationalize.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Elaine, the truth set us free. Amen

The great problem with SDAs finding truth are the writings of Mrs. White. Once they prove she can't be clasified as a true prophet then the New Testament comes together and they can be set free too. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait till they find out that the Mark of and Image to the Beast is not about a day, but a system that is prominent in a certain goal, held in wonder by the world, and cherished and protected by proclaimed Christians that are willing to kill to further it, thinking they do God service.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The theme runs throughout the whole Bible.
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine says:

"Adventists have attempted to mesh both Judaism and Christianity with the result that it is neither fish nor fowl--neither Jewish nor Christian. Adventists select certain Jewish scriptures (while eliminating many) as being a requirement today, but in so doing, they negate the plain directives given by Paul who established the Christian church. It can't be both ways, which is why their doctrines are so terribly confusing for a Bible student, and most difficult, nigh impossible to explain or rationalize."

That is why Jesus said:

Luke 5:36 "And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old".


Luke 5:37 "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish".


Luke 5:38 "But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved".


Luke 5:39 "No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better".
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert,

quote:

"Hubert, do you not believe God made a special covenant with Israel and Israel only? Do you not believe He included in that covenant laws concerning how the keepers of the Sanctuary were to be supported? Do you not believe that the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8 is a better covenant than the one given to Israel?"


God did not make a "special" covenant with Israel. Read Exodus 19:5. He gave them "my covenant", the everlasting covenant that He also gave to Abraham and that Jesus ratified on the cross.

The people responded with a promise, "All that the Lord hath spoken, we will do." This was the promise of obedience and dedication but included the weakness of human promises. It was also meant and taken as a "human covenant" as they went through a ratification ceremony in Exodus 24. (It is impossible for humans to ratify "my covenant" of God!) This was the "historical" old covenant.

After Moses was in the mount 40 days, the people had a rebellious heathen festival and broke the covenant that they made, and broke the covenant that God gave to them.

Moses entered into a series of four intense intercedings with God and brought them back into the covenant of God. See Exodus 34:10.

As time passed the people forgot the Messiah promised in the sacrifices, and looked on the sacrifices and rituals as the sum and center of their religion. They looked on God as a vengeful tyrant to be appeased -- a heathen concept. By the time the Messiah came, they had added hundreds of regulations to their laws. They looked for salvation to keeping all these laws, and to their lineage from Abraham. This was the experiential old covenant.

After Jesus came, lived, give Himself a willing sacrifice on Calvary, was resurrected and ascended the early Christians for the first time began to realize His true mission. Some of the Jewish Christians were not able to let go of their old covenant thinking and practices. The Jerusalem council ruled against this in Acts 15. But the issue remained, and a party of "Judaizers" developed.

Paul in Hebrews worked to get these Jews to realize that salvation and forgiveness of sins came from the real sacrifice of Jesus on the cross; NOT from animal sacrifices and ceremonies -- the "law of Moses." It was this old covenant thinking that was old, faulty, and ready to pass away. Paul had to meet this issue repeatedly.

quote:

"None of the covenants God made with man take away the plan between the Godhead for the salvation of mankind before the foundation of the World. The plan for Jesus to save mankind (the plan of salvation)was not a joint covenant with man."


This is a good statement. I would need to point out that there was only ONE covenant made before the foundation of the world. It was in the promise of the coming Redeemer that Good took authority to limit Satan in his plans, to give grace to change men's lives, and to give blessings and promises to all.

Each "covenant God gave to man" is simply a renewal of His covenant. The blessings are different according to the needs of men at the time.

quote:

"The covenant made with Israel at Sinai was completely conditional. If you will I will. They didn't and He didn't. That covenant of over 300 laws failed to keep the Israelites from sinning and it had no power to cover those sins. All was symbolic. The covenant Jesus ratified at the Cross will never fail. It is the real thing and really, fully, covers our sins. The covenant of Grace is all I need. Trying to mix covenants is only confusing and is not being faithful to Jesus. "


The covenants and promises of God are always conditional on faith. He does not force Himself on men.

This takes some thinking. God's blessing is not conditional on his obedience. It is conditional on his trust and faith. Having faith in God will lead to obedience, and it is that obedience that is evidence of faith. Exodus 19:4 and 20:2 indicate what God will do for men through grace -- the power by which He delivered them from bondage. (See DA 668 -- "I we consent")

Jesus covenant, ratified at the cross, will never fail. But God does not remove the power of choice He gives to all men. So long as we trust in Him, He will be true to us. It really, fully covers all sin. The steps in partaking of the divine character is another subject.

You are very correct -- mixing covenants is very confusing. To understand the covenant, one must understand how the everlasting covenant was first made, the covenant given to Israel at Sinai, the old covenant of human promises, the new covenant and all its applications, and what Jesus accomplished at the cross.
--------------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.

P.S. The ceremonial law was not and never was a part of any covenant with God. These laws were written in a book and kept in the SIDE of the ark. The ten commandments on tables of stone, also called "the covenant" were kept INSIDE the ark.

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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb, this is a pretty unique covenant:


quote:

Deut 5:


The Ten Commandments
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain.




or, how many people were actually
"brought out of Egypt"?


quote:

Ex 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.



God is, therefore I think!
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, have you really thought out your theory that this covenant you are referring to started at creation and is still in effect today? Bob Sands gave you the Deut. 5 text and also in Deut. we find that the 10plus all the commands were what comprised the covenant with Israel.

I presume this one covenant you keep stating is the 10 commandments, but as evidenced in Deut. 5. Verse 17 of Deut 6 says: Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. The stipulations and decrees told the Israelites how to keep the abbreviated 10. Without some of the other 300 plus laws the 10 would not have made much sense. The 10 and the remainder of the covenant came as a package. For instance, tho shalt not kill didn't mean that life could not be taken. It took the full covenant to explain what God was referring to. Your explanation that the covenant was only the 10 doesn't really make any sense. I guess you have to try to make this point to try to explain Matt. 5:18. Scripture just doesn't support your theory.

2Cor 3 and the remainder of Paul's writings tells us that the 10 commandments written on stone faded and is no longer the covenant which is to direct our lives. Acts 15 is a great example that we are not under the laws given to the Israelites on Mt.Sinai and those written by Moses. Yet you, because of your prophet, cling to unclean laws, modified tithing laws and Sabbath laws. She and the early Church leaders picked and chose the ones they wanted to impose upon the little flock. They needed some laws to hold them accountable to and cherry picked those that they could get by with. Bob


Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob Sands,
You have brought up those verses before. Here is how I see it:

After forty years of wandering in the desert, Israel again approached Canaan, this time through Gilead and Bashan. By the power of God they dispossessed the Amorites and took their lands. Now camped on the east side of the river, opposite Jericho, Moses gathered all Israel and reminded the people of their covenant with God, with blessings and curses depending on their obedience.

quote:

2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 "The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 "The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire" (Deuteronomy 5:2-4).


The generation that had come out of Egypt had died in the wilderness, and a new generation had arisen. Ahead of them was the invasion of Canaan and their settlement on the land. There would be challenges and there would be temptations. They needed a clear concept of God’s purpose in giving them the land, they needed to know their responsibilities as the chosen people of God, and they needed to know the law. Most important, they needed to remember how God had delivered them from bondage in Egypt.

These verses demand close attention to the rhetorical turns in logic. It can be confusing. Each part must be understood and made to fit with the rest of the passage. So let us go one step further and explain each line:

The Lord made a covenant with US in Horeb. This was forty years later. All the adult generation that met at Horeb were dead. BUT, He made the covenant with US? An impossibility? We have to understand the issue of corporate responsibility. We all sinned in Adam. Israel paid tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham. We keep the law of God in Christ and are saved in Him. Etc.

Everyone who stood on the banks of the Jordan received the covenant in their fathers.
The Lord made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with US. Now we are getting practical. The covenant made with the fathers does us NO good, unless He makes the covenant with us too!

The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount. This is a poetic expression emphasizing what was said in verse two. Did God talk to the people standing on the bank of the Jordan at Horeb? NO! Did God talk to the fathers face to face at Horeb? NO! The only person that God talked to "face to face" was Moses. And even then, in Exodus 33 he asks for the privilege of seeing God! The only glimpse Moses got was of God after he passed by him.

However, in this case Moses corporately represented Israel. The Covenant that God gave to Moses He gave to the fathers at Horeb, and to each generation to follow.

The same issue is raised on the bank of the Jordan that arose at Horeb: Will they accept the covenant of God? Will they "learn them, and keep, and do them." (Deut. 5:1). To summarize, each generation must make their own covenant, their commitment to God. Each individual must come in the presence of God. Each person must give his life to God on a day by day basis, as in the morning and evening sacrifice.

God made this covenant "with all of us who are alive today." This was the same covenant made with Adam and Eve; with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and the covenant renewed at Sinai. It was the everlasting covenant. Moses emphasized that each person standing before him that day were "corporately" in their fathers as God spoke to them the covenant. The covenant was for them as if they were actually at Sinai to hear it given. Yet, the covenant must be renewed with each person. We cannot ride on the coattails of our ancestors. God has "no grandchildren."

Some have read in these verses that the covenant, which included the ten commandments, were given just to the Jews. But the concept of the "everlasting covenant," a term repeated sixteen times, precludes this idea. God is not capricious. He is dependable and unchanging. He is not a respecter of persons. The plan of salvation is dependable as the Rock of Ages and was given to all people in all ages and in all places. It is everlasting.
---------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob Shields,

I believe in Ellen White as a person specially chosen by God to give His messages to the church.

I believe that she was specially given to this church to help the 144,000 to live to see Jesus come.

I also realize that the Christian world in general do not believe this. Thus, all my presentations on this forum are supported by Bible texts only. Please keep that in mind, and if you don't agree, give me a Bible reason for your belief.

I believe that I have good Bible reasons to believe that the covenant of grace was formulated between the Father and the Son in heaven before Creation. And, it is only through this covenant that grace is available for mankind, and only through this covenant that we are saved. And further, it is through this covenant that Jesus has "all power" and is able to bless His people and to change their lives.
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, a while back I posted a section out of "Spiritual Gifts" which denied the Biblical account of the plan of salvation. You had previously stated that the plan was made before the World was created. You never did give us any more information. I hope you didn't just sweep this important writing under the rug hoping it would go away and you would forget about it. Mrs. White said that she saw this in vision and even included her angel in the episode. This is very serious. It is another place in her writings that do not jive with scripture and concludes that she was not a reliable source. One false teaching makes her a false prophet. We know of many more places, but this one is very blatant.

Please don't allow her account to just somehow fade away. If she is wrong here and with the tithing issue, how could you ever trust her?

Here is the account again:
"Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 45) Emphasis mine.

Again, how do you ever trust what she said?

In Christ, Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You continue to trust her by getting rid of the Tests of a Prophet that we were taught in Academy, and by telling the people who bring these things up that they are going to hell-in-a-handbasket. blink

Ain't that right, Sorensen....?
Maggie
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
I believe that she was specially given to this church to help the 144,000 to live to see Jesus come. In light of all the falsehood she wrote I would be very wary. of putting any faith in her.

I also realize that the Christian world in general do not believe this. Thus, all my presentations on this forum are supported by Bible texts only. Please keep that in mind, and if you don't agree, give me a Bible reason for your belief. I have, but you then interpret any verses in light of Ellen.

In Christ, Bob


Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maggie, does this do her in?

2. Agreement With the Bible—Isaiah 8:20. What a prophet claims to have received from God must be in harmony with the rest of God’s Word, because God does not contradict Himself (Ps. 15:4; Mal. 3:6). Although Ellen G. White was not a trained theologian, her messages are in harmony with Scripture. Bold supplied

Are they? Well, it doesn't take a genius,which I am not, to figure if she was in harmony with scripture. Bob




Where there is life there is hope.
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Plan of Salvation, or the Covenant of Salvation, you may argue is a central theme, Hubb, but you are unique in saying that their are not two covenant, one replacing the other. The word everlasting or forever, has to be read in context, regarding circumcision, regarding the Sabbath, regarding hell. How did SDAs come up with annihilation rather than eternal tormenting conscious hell that is taught in the Bible? Well, because the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah consumed, they did not in fact burn forever. Right? The same is true of the Jews forever, it is conditional, and they failed in their unbelief.

The only constant covenant, per the Bible is the Abrahamic Covenant that allows for our adoption as Gentiles. The Plan of Salvation has been there from before the foundations of the earth. But the PROMISE to Abraham endures through the 1st and 2nd Covenants.

You can only get the everlasting covenant to be the Plan of Salvation through EGW, not the Bible. I have been through your reasoning and it does not compute.

When God sent His Son, Jesus fulfilled the law including the Sabbath. The Reformed position or Covenant Theology does not teach this. In fact, most not SDA denominations keep the commandments, but Sunday is said to be the Christian Sunday. That is not what the Bible says. It replaces the Decalogue of the 1st Covenant with Christ's Law of the 2nd Covenant and Hebrew 4 and 8 deal separately with the Sabbath. I have no problem keeping Saturday Sabbath, but let's be intellectually honest about our position.

There are Professors of Religion at LLU for Gay Marriage in California, so when we are a minority wanting protection against those who would harm Saturday worshippers, some chips can be called in. WOW, what a way to run a church. Why not the truth. Gay Marriage is wrong, and the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ. He is now our TRUE REST. Col 2: 16, 17
God is, therefore I think!
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is not an SDA source, that I know, but it outlines the Biblical Covenants as good as I've seen:

http://faith.propadeutic.com/covenant.html
God is, therefore I think!
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"None of the covenants God made with man take away the plan between the Godhead for the salvation of mankind before the foundation of the World. The plan for Jesus to save mankind (the plan of salvation)was not a joint covenant with man."

It was certainly not from scripture as there is never the term "Godhead" found in scripture.

Was it overlooked that there was no source given for that statement? Or was it yours alone?

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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob Shields said: Maggie, does this do her in?

This is the book we were taught from in Academy:


quote:

A Prophet Among You: Tests of a Prophet

  • “To the law and to the testimony.” Isaiah 8:20.
  • “By their fruits.” Matthew 7:20.
  • “When the word … shall come to pass.” Jeremiah 28:9.
  • “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.” 1 John 4:2.
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc06.html#pg99
Many of EGW's prophetic words did not come to pass, she has been the root of much conflict because she contradicts herself--her legalism negates the Gospel and her Gospel negates her legalism in many places.

"God never contradicts Himself."

I'm prepared to believe that, but the Bible does contradict itself, and Ellen White certainly contradicts herself, IMO.

We're all where we are on these issues.

There is much that is beautiful and uplifting in the Bible and in the writings attributed to Ellen White.

But this is way off-topic--sorry.
Maggie
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now that we know where Maggs stands, that helps alot, to explain the crazy posting. I was getting scared for a moment there. With the Lucifer Effect quote, thought someone was trying to throw a hex around. Sheeeeesh.
God is, therefore I think!
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I've never made it a secret where I stand.

You seem to have reacted to the word "Lucifer" without understanding, or, most probably, reading/watching, far less thinking, about anything I posted about it.

I don't think it would be possible to hold a rational conversation with you, unfortunately.

I think perhaps the reason you started spamming me was that I outed Behe for being in bed with the Reconstructionists. That's my best guess for why you're on this rampage.

It's possible you're also drunk, by the way you're coming across.

In any case, you're really out of control, and not making sense, which several of us have pointed out to you.

I'm going to ignore you now, but I'm not your enemy.

Peace.
Maggie
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did have some Sangria tonight, but not enough to be tipsy. Spamming you I'm not, I would be using your email address, but I'm just havin' a good ole time like the rest of you. Sorry to disappoint you. Behe and Reconstructionists, nope. Just didn't understand what Quantum Computers had to do with anything. Oh well, have a good night.
God is, therefore I think!
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You have a good night too, friend.
Maggie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine,

"Godhead" not in the Bible? Look up these verses: Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9.

Some SDAs prefer the word "Godhead" as it is closer to how we view God. The word "trinity" is NOT in the Bible.

Hubb
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb, I like this one:

Jude 1:20-21
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.


WOW, looks like all three mentioned there, eh??

Also,

1. Holy Spirit impregnanted Mary

2. Jesus was the product of the impregnating.

3. Jesus was talking to His Father on the Cross and in Gethsemane, wasn't He.

Elaine, some don't need a picture drawn to see the members, eh???

God is, therefore I think!
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb, this is one of the more beautiful texts that talk of all three members of the Godhead:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

or how about:

Romans 15:30 I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me

Wow, Hubb, they just keep coming to me:

Romans 8:14-17
14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba,[b] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.



God is, therefore I think!
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, even in the OT:

Isaiah 48:16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.


God is, therefore I think!
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 7:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine said:
"It was certainly not from scripture as there is never the term "Godhead" found in scripture.

Was it overlooked that there was no source given for that statement? Or was it yours alone?"

Elaine, would you, in light of the above posts, like to restate you comment about the Godhead?

Also I didn't realize that I had to qualify my own statement.:-) Please give me more info.

Bob



Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maggie wrote:
"I'm prepared to believe that, but the Bible does contradict itself, and Ellen White certainly contradicts herself, IMO.

We're all where we are on these issues.

There is much that is beautiful and uplifting in the Bible and in the writings attributed to Ellen White. But this is way off-topic--sorry."

Since Ellen White is the one who put her stamp on the modified tithing system, I believe we are on topic to review what she taught verses scripture.

Certainly the scriptures do have some minor contradictions. The method of translation and the many times it has been translated may be the cause of some errors. Ellen White just blatantly erred so much that even the beautiful things she wrote are suspicious. We have many books by well know authors of our time that are very inspiring and yes, there may be mistakes, but the writers never claimed to have been told by an angel or whatever. Mrs. White, (may I call her Ellen? I feel I know her so well.) :-) does sound so authentic though. No wonder so many feel she really is authentic. They just don't take the time to test her with the word. The GC and White Estate tells them what they want to hear and this closes any doubt they might have. Hubert has testified as to how honest they all are. The "remnant" couldn't be very far off course.

So, keep on sending the modified tithe to the good ol boys up there at the GC and they will, in return, feed y'all peanuts and, of course, Ellen.

Y'all have a great day, hear. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The term "Godhead" or "Trinity" are never used in Scripture.

Because it was not explicitly stated, it took the church more than 300 years to formally adopt a statement "canonizing" the Trinity. To this day, the Eastern Church has not accepted the Western Church's definition.

Paul NEVER claimed that Jesus was also God, he said that God was the Father of Christ, the firstborn.

Acts 17:29: "Since we are the children of God, we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by a man."

Romans 1:20: "Ever since God created the world his everlasting power and deity--however invisible--have been there for the mind to see in the things he has made."

Col. 2:9: "in his body (Christ) lives the fullness of divinity, and in him you too find your own fulfilment, in the one who is the head of every Soverignity and Power."

The only one of the three, the last one, COULD be speaking of God, but if Christ is considered divine, that is not defined as God, unless that is the way you choose to read it. The first two are not at all defining the Godhead.

He says that it was God that created the world, and Jesus is his son.

Hubb, are you also your father? The metaphor is inexplicable and should be best not made a dogma, IMO.

It could be compared to the three areas of your function: son, father, husband; but your cannot be all three, only closely related.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Elaine,
Your original comment was that the word "Godhead" did not occur in the Bible. The three verses I gave you showed this term in the King James Version (Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9. It is also found in the American Standard Version in two of these texts, and in the Amplified version (in parentheses) in two texts.

In the Young's Literal Version it is found in all three texts.

Strongs dictionary equates "Godhead" with the word "divinity" as it is translated in other translations.
----------------------------

What did Paul have to say about Christ? In Hebrews 1:2,3 he states that He is the Son, the Creator, the "brightness of His glory", the forgiver of sins, and on the Father's right hand in the throne of heaven.

I'm sure there are more and better texts, but these say a lot.

Hubb
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Once in a while, you will have to hear "Hubb's manifesto!"

Ellen White was specially chosen by God to give messages to His remnant church. This was necessary to prepare a church with a pure doctrine, to aid the people to overcome sin by grace, and to prevent the widespread deception from leading His church astray again.

This message was given to two men before EGW was chosen. These men declined to proclaim the message. God then chose the "weakest of the weak." By working through the weak, He would demonstrate even more His power and grace.

With only a third grade education, can a person expect perfection? Of course not. Can a person discern the message of God, even with imperfection? Of course. The Holy Spirit is present to guide at all times.

There are many who do not have the writings of EGW because of expense or language barriers. Will they be saved? Yes! God has a special concern for His people living in difficult places.

Will people who choose to ignore or bypass EGW be saved? I hope so. If such have a living relationship with Christ, they will be saved. The writings of EGW were given as a help, and lacking these helps, these people will have a harder time.

Will people who attack the writings of EGW be saved? That is a serious question, and you will need to hear me out. If God is trying to help His people, and they cannot afford the books, or are occupied with other aspects of their relationship with God; He is merciful and will be with them.

If people hate the writings, the messages God has given, and attack them with every means at their disposal; they not only lose the benefit of the instruction given, but imperil their relationship with Jesus Christ, who sent those messages.

To set oneself above the messages of God is to put oneself where God cannot communicate with them. It is common observation that those who attack EGW will in time turn away from the Bible, and will "make their own religion." They have chosen the "wisdom of the gods" and will go their own way.

But God is merciful. He invites us to come for help in the time of need. His grace is freely given for all.
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 6:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
"If people hate the writings, the messages God has given, and attack them with every means at their disposal; they not only lose the benefit of the instruction given, but imperil their relationship with Jesus Christ, who sent those messages."

I love the message God gave us. Despite wars, famines and of course Satan himself the scriptures are shining brightly as they did when written.

When I test Ellen with those words of inspiration in scripture, she just doesn't get it Hubert. Even you have totally evaded my twice posted fabricated story of how Jesus pleaded with the Father........and I can site so many more examples of out right lying. You want me to believe in her and if I don't you have me going to hell? Get your head out of the sand and study her writings. Compare them with scripture. If you are really an honest man, you will come to the same conclusion as have thousands.

If I were a Mormon, you would be writing me the same things about Joe Smith as I have to you about Ellen. The Mormons would have duped me just as Aventism has duped you about Ellen.

You want me to believe in Ellen so that I can have a place in Heaven? Well, answer the charges and ask me for all the doubts I have concerning her. The tongue and cheek answers the White Estate give us may convince you, but when closly examined are just another poor coverup.

Now I believe you are going to label me as a mean spirited angry person. You eluded to this in a previous post. I was angry. I was angry because I was duped into believing falsehood. That anger has passed thank the Lord and I now have a mission to tell my brethern the Good News. News that you too don't have to live with the heavy yoke. In trying to answer my questions I believe you will find new light on your prophet.

We can even start a new thread dedicated to all that we formers have gleened since we are really off topic with Ellen's story about the Heavenly plan for our redemption. In Christ, Bob

Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert,
Here is a statement from you:

quote:

"I tried to measure myself by what Mrs. White wrote. It was impossible to ever come close to what she expected from her flock. Messages like: never say you are saved, meant to me that I couldn't ever know that Jesus blood covered me. It was His promise, but somehow trough her glasses I couldn't claim that promise. Her claim that only 1 in 20 SDAs are ready for eternity with Jesus. Using her writings as our measuring stick not one in 50,000 are ready."


To try to measure one's self is to fall inadvertently into legalism. See 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. The fight of faith is to believe in and trust in Jesus Christ. With each trial and temptation, turn immediately to Him. Of course, we must decide to obey, then He makes it possible. But see how "close we come" can lead to the worst kind of legalism -- perfectionism.

To never say you are saved? The issue then as well as now is the Baptist stand: "once saved always saved." It is never for the Christian to judge whether he is saved. See again 1 John 1:6-10. This makes it clear.

One in 20 SDAs ready for translation? We have more temptations in our modern age than were present before. TV, commercial sports, etc all rob the Christian of his time and attention he needs to give to Jesus. If we give to Him our life, doesn't that mean that we also give Him our days, hours, and minutes? Think about that. Generally, how much time does the usual church goer spend in Bible study as compared to how much he spends watching TV, reading novels, or other activities for pleasure?

It is good to be lead by the Holy Spirit, but how does one differentiate the Holy Spirit from one's own thoughts and desires? This is where one must be very knowledgeable with what the Bible says; and with how the Holy Spirit leads us in that study. Revelation 13 indicates that Satan will produce miracles in the last days. These will be inspiring, devotional, beautiful miracles. They can be recognized as Satanic only through what has already been revealed from the Bible.

EGW has a lot to say about Jesus' life, death and resurrection. She writes much about the meaning of these things. Her writings are very gospel oriented. And she lived by what she wrote.

(J.R. is going to bring up about oysters again. I can feel it coming. But can you deny perfection for yourself yet expect perfection in someone else -- even EGW?)

Hebrews 4:12 is a good verse to point out that our attitude in reading the Bible and EGW are important in what we will get out of it.
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert, the other statement that you wanted my comment on is:


quote:

"Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 22) Emphasis mine. Bob


The problem that many have with inspired writings is that they require strict chronological sequence in what is written. One doesn't have to read much of the Bible to find that strict chronological sequence is often not followed. But let's look at one statement from that quote:

quote:

"Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die."


This apparently describes a scene after the fall of man. Further it describes Jesus pleading with the Father regarding His (Jesus’) role as the ransom for man.

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His death was “foreordained” before the foundation of the world. But this scene seems to occur AFTER sin occurred. Can this discrepancy be reconciled? Maybe more important is, does it need to be reconciled? Does this passage in any way take away from the message of the Plan of Salvation?

Here are some comments:
1. This statement is not intended to be a chronological story of these events. After all, we have little concept of what time means for heavenly beings.
2. Could the original council “before the foundation of the world” have already taken place at some time in the past, but must now be implemented – and these are two different events?
3. Or could EGW have seen wonderful things in heaven, and with her third grade education did her best to describe it? If she was not entirely accurate in her description, is the message compromised in any way? I think not!

I suspect that in the life and writings of EGW there will be found “mistakes and discrepancies.” God chose the “weakest of the weak” and we can take courage from this that He can use even me. I also believe that these do not affect the message God has given through her.
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert wrote:
"To try to measure one's self is to fall inadvertently into legalism.... But see how "close we come" can lead to the worst kind of legalism -- perfectionism."

Ellen was constantly telling the flock to measure up. She wrote many rebukes found in the "Testimonies" because they didn't measure up to what she said was the truth. She also taught perfectionism. We were all taught to measure up to her standards. I know now that it was all legalism and I am thrilled to be out from under that wily power.
Quote:
"To never say you are saved? The issue then as well as now is the Baptist stand: "once saved always saved."....

The White trustees added that she was referring to "once saved always saved" but is that what she really meant? I sure don't see anything close to referring to that. She didn't claim the promise and taught her subjects that they couldn't either. I copied and pasted her statement below. Her method was working your way to Heaven. If you didn't produce enough works you were lost. The promise isn't based on any works we do, it is accepting His promise, period. Listen to Jesus words in Jn. 3:15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned,..... ."

And Ellen said we can't claim that promise? Shame on her and all who believe what she says over the simple truth of Jesus words. I am sorry that you don't know you are saved. It is a terrible way to live. I know from experience.

"Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved.' [NOTE: IT IS THE PRIVILEGE OF THE CHRISTIAN TO KNOW THAT ON HIS ACCEPTANCE OF CHRIST HE IS SAVED FROM HIS SINS AND CAN REJOICE IN THIS SALVATION. BUT NEITHER THE SCRIPTURES NOR THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY WRITINGS SUPPORTS THE POPULAR TEACHING: "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED." A PERSON MAY BE SAVED TODAY, BUT FAILING TO KEEP HIS EYES ON JESUS AND TO GROW DAILY IN HIM, MAY BECOME SELF-CONFIDENT AND BE LOST TOMORROW. THE APOSTLE PAUL DECLARED, "I DIE DAILY." IN A SENSE, CONVERSION IS A DAILY EXPERIENCE. {NL 42.1
STUDY CAREFULLY THE WARNING DRAWN FROM THE LESSON IN PETER'S LIFE. READ IT IN ITS FULL CONTEXT AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE SIMILAR STATEMENT THAT FOLLOWS. YOU WILL FIND THE PERPLEXING PASSAGE TO BE SELF-EXPLANATORY. OUR LORD WOULD HAVE EACH CHRISTIAN REJOICE FREELY IN HIS THE SALVATION HE ENJOYS DAILY. AND WHEN ASKED, "ARE YOU SAVED?" HE CAN WITH ASSURANCE ANSWER YES. HE WILL EXPLAIN THAT THIS EXPERIENCE IS ONE THAT RESULTS IN CONSTANT DEPENDENCE ON GOD AND IN DAILY CHRISTIAN GROWTH.--WHITE TRUSTEES.]} This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's Word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried" (Dan. 12:10). Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12).
Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ." [CHRIST'S OBJECT LESSONS, PP. 154, 155.] {NL 42.2}

Hog wash, if we go around not knowing if we are safely in Jesus arms, we have no hope.

Something interesting from the White trustees is their use of Paul's statement that he died daily. Of course it was a quote from Ellen and totally changed what Paul was saying. Listen to her.

"Our morning meeting was held in the tent. I spoke again about thirty minutes in reference to genuine sanctification which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. Paul's sanctification was a daily conflict with self. Said he, "I die daily" (1 Cor. 15:31). His will and his desires daily conflicted with duty and the will of God. In the plan of not following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret their own will to be just what God wills. They do exactly as they desire and flatter themselves they are conforming to God's will. They please self in everything and have no conflict with self." {TDG 251.2}

Now listen to the scripture: 1Cor 15: 29 Suppose no one rises from the dead. Then what will people do who are baptized for the dead? Suppose the dead are not raised at all. Then why are people baptized for them? 30 And why would we put ourselves in danger every hour?

31 I die every day. I really mean that, brothers and sisters. Here is something you can be sure of. I take pride in what Christ Jesus our Lord has done for you through my work. 32 Did I fight wild animals in Ephesus for only human reasons? Then what have I gotten for it? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
because tomorrow we will die."


One in 20 SDAs ready for translation? We have more temptations in our modern age than were present before. TV, commercial sports, etc all rob the Christian of his time and attention he needs to give to Jesus. If we give to Him our life, doesn't that mean that we also give Him our days, hours, and minutes? Think about that. Generally, how much time does the usual church goer spend in Bible study as compared to how much he spends watching TV, reading novels, or other activities for pleasure?

All that is not for me nor Ellen to judge.
So, now it is less than 1 in 20? First of all salvation is not based on what we do. It is based on faith in Jesus and accepting His Grace. I don't care if people ditch their TVs, spends every available second reading scripture, never enjoy a ball game or any other secular enjoyment, if they don't claim the promise, I am saved, Jesus is still waiting and they are sinners not saved by Grace. Bob


Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Hubert for giving your analysis of this story. Are you really trying to convince me or yourself?

Hubert wrote:
"The problem that many have with inspired writings is that they require strict chronological sequence in what is written. One doesn't have to read much of the Bible to find that strict chronological sequence is often not followed. But let's look at one statement from that quote:

Plese show me one story in scripture that messes up the chronological order of the story. Books of the Bible are out of order, but as to stories, I know of none. You need to defend her so much that you are willing to say anything to make her look kosher. Like thousands before you, Adventists have been sipping on the koolade made by Mrs. and Mr. James White and of course son Willy. Now the White Estate is carrying the banner. Must be very good money in books.
Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubb, the Bible verses I quoted were from either the NASB or the Jerusalem Bible, both are considered the finest and most accurate translations. The KJV is far from that, which all good Bible scholars agree on.

If the "Godhead" and "Trinity" are considered synonyms, the early Christians surely were unable to see it: First, because there were many writings several centuries before the NT was canonized; second: why would there have been such fierce arguments surrounding the Trinity if it were so very clear?

Truth is, history shows us that not until the Council of Nicea in 325, was the first Trinitarian statement approved; and even afterward, it did not stop the dissidents as the western church was far more literal in their interpretation of the Bible, while the eastern branch was more contemplative and their idea of a Trinity was not incorporated into words but remained a way of experiencing God.

Studying the history of the formation of both the NT and early Christian doctrine gives a lot of background that the Bible does not show, nor should it be expected to. Many of the later accepted Christian doctrines took several centuries to be defined, and did not immediately become doctrine following the resurrection.
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Only one in twenty SDAs fit to be translated.'

That statement of EGW is one of the most discouraging of all the things she ever wrote. I wonder if she included herself in that statistic. Did she feel she was the 'one'?

If that's all that will be translated, I sure don't want to try to lead anyone to the Lord. It would lessen my chances.

Might as well throw up my hands and quit.

renie
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Bob Sands (Bob_2)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irene, you got to stop reading her!!! Stick to the Bible!!! Then you only have to explain things like why there was a flood to John Alfke, eh?
God is, therefore I think!
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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chapter Title: "Prayer for the Sick" "1021. We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church.--U. T." (Healthful Living, page 237, paragraph 4.)


HUH????

Luk 6:27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,


Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.


Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.


Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.


Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.


Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.


Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.


Luk 6:34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.


Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.


Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob....that's a great comeback.

renie
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Irene Longfellow (Renie)
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Post Number: 187
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Holy Toledo!!!! Cadge. I've never read that statement from EGW. "We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church."

Just when I thought I had heard it all.

Thanks for all the other heartwarming texts from Luke.

Bob. you're right. I should stick to the
Bible.

renie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert,
Carefully read Revelation chapter 12 and follow the changes in sequence. Especially note verses six and fourteen, and the place these verses hold in the general story. The message of this chapter is clear, but the sequence is used by the author to make his point.

Then read Revelation 13:3. The deadly wound was healed -- yet in verse 5 the 1260 year prophecy is again referenced. Finally in verse ten the destruction of this beast is given, yet there is much activity that follows in the second half of the chapter.

Does this worry me? NO! Was John telling a lie to say he saw these things, yet he mixes the sequence of the story? NO! The message of this chapter, too, is very clear.

Hubb
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Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I started reading "The Testimonies" after leaving Adventism. We had them in our home, of course, but I never read them. Always thought that I should, must be a lot of good stuff in there from the prophet. I vaguely remember flipping through them occasionally, and not really wanting to read further. Now I read them because it is kind of entertaining in a weird way. There is so much stuff in those books, that I don't think 1 in 10,000 Adventists know about. Those books are the "real Ellen". I read Spiritual Gifts 1 & 2. Very childish. If more Adventist would really read "The Testimonies" and some of the other writings, besides the very reworked, revised and plagiarized offerings like GC, DOA and the rest of the Conflict Series, they might actually have a moment of clarity where they think "hmmm...maybe I should really rethink this whole thing".

Also, after researching and reading the other side of the story regarding people like Kellogg, Canright and other people and situations that were going on, it's fun to read the Testimonies and see how things were spun and slanted from EGW. It seems very unfair to have only one person's side of the story...which is what the testimonies were all about, one side of the story to shame, bully and call people out to control them, and to let people know what was in store for them, if they got out of line.

Also, her(?) writings are very, very repetitive.
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Ron Corson (Ron)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. They are professedly serving God, but they are more earnestly serving mammon." {GCB, July 1, 1900 par. 7}

I think one thing we have to realize is that Ellen White never really did leave behind her works based theology. People pretend she did after 1888 but it was far from ever really accepting the concept of righteousness by faith.
New Protestants.com
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carol, if you really want to get to know the real Ellen, go to the White Estate website and in the query box type in letters to Willy. In those series of pathetic letters you will find the one that tells, I believe Edson, but not sure, that God doesn't love little children that are bad.

Speaking of Dr. Kellogg, have you heard of the failed false vision Ellen had concerning Dr. Kellogg building medical buildings in Chicago? This will knock your socks off. http://www.truthorfables.com/Statement_by_MG_Kellogg.htm
Where there is life there is hope.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, in neither account do I see John going back and adding some previous account. I certainly am not a Biblical scholar but as I see it the visions are consistent. When the stars were cast to Earth by the dragon (satan) it didn't say that they were bound here. It sounds like the dragon gathered those angels together and made a stab at taking over Heaven after the man child was born. Then the dragon and the angels were hurled to the Earth.

The Rev 13 account is a straight flowing statement.

By the way, the SDAs believe that the beast is the RCC. Never has the RCC had the whole world astonished and following it. I believe you have chosen the wrong one to be the beast.

Rev. 12:1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Rev 13: 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" 5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.







Where there is life there is hope.
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Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler)
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Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the links. I had read the Kellogg/Chicago Bldg story before, but it has been a while, so read it again. Once again, it is amazing how mean and vindictive Ellen and "her gang" (as Irene pointed out earlier about gangs) were, to their own members, over and over. The real Ellen and Willie, were like some kind of religious cabal of power and abuse. The dishonest way the church has portrayed their history and continues to do so, is enough, in and of itself, to leave such an organization. How this can continue on and be defended is beyond logical thinking.
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pure and simple mind control Carol. Also, if a person is born into a specific religion it is very difficult to change. Most do not study, but take their cue from their family and peers.

Adventists do not have the proper view of the covenants, as seen by what Hubert writes, and fall for Old Covenant rules like the Sabbath. From there it is easy to accept the prophet without ever knowing what she is really about. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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John Alfke (John8verse32)
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Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chapter Title: "Prayer for the Sick" "1021. We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church.--U. T." (Healthful Living, page 237, paragraph 4.)

David....did I find the wrong source?
because if this is the right source, I wonder if the Estate has removed the above offending passage:

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mh/mh16.html
ever notice when you blow in a dog's face, he gets mad at you, but when you take him on a car ride, he sticks his head out the window in the breeze?

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David J Cadieux (Cadge)
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Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, I lifted it from this site:

http://www.geocities.com/whitemountainchat/egwbigotry.html

But you'll find it here:

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default

I typed in "withholding" on "full text search" and looked for "been withholding tithes" and found it a #109.


109. 21% BOOKS/HL - Healthful Living (1897, 1898)/Chapter XXXV. - Prayer for the Sick.
...the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble ...
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hubert, to further comment on your theory that Ellen was just not writing in chronological sequence and that John wrote in this fashion, I would like to add John suddenly changes scenes several times during his prophetic writings about the future. His is a story mostly of future events. John's style of writing cannot ever be compared with that of Ellen. Ellen didn't ever write in symbols. John's are full of them. Ellen never had a habit of writing, seemingly, disjointed stories. There are a few out there. Her staff did a great job of making her look good.

Comparing the two writers is not a wise thing to do. Just admit that Ellen really made up the story and then be wary of what you decide to believe concerning her. She has for too many times been proven wrong. The scriptures are still the best we have. Bob
Where there is life there is hope.
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,
When you know she is the messenger of God, you will find out that there are explanations to all those problems.

When you know she is wrong and mean-spirited, you will find innumerable problems that support that conclusion.

That is what Hebrews 4:12 is all about.
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Elaine Nelson (Elaine)
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Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When you know she is the messenger of God, you will find out that there are explanations to all those problems.

When you know she is wrong and mean-spirited, you will find innumerable problems that support that conclusion.


Which means that a priori reasoning is applied FIRST before reading.

Hint: Simply accept that she is a prophet, then
read her and you will see that is true.

Or, accept that she is only a human just like you and then you will see that she THOUGHT and her followers BELIEVED she was a prophet.

No one can be called "prophet" without affirmation and a following who proceeds her.

Like the Bible: if you believe it is "God's Word" and inerrant and infallible, you will disregard all the questions that might have accompanied any similar contemporary writing. It's all in your previous position--which must first be taught.
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Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje)
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Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 4:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hub - When you know she is the messenger of God, you will find out that there are explanations to all those problems. Please tell me HOW YOU KNOW SHE IS THE MESSENGER OF GOD to begin with? I can't believe a man of your caliber would come up with a statement like that - maybe someone with an elementary education or none might, but you've even been to medical school! What proof do you have that EGW talks for God? Have you ever even asked yorself that question?
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let me offer an answer to several who have asked the same question. Here is a Bible verse:

quote:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).


I am offering MY answer. It is an answer that makes sense to me and is compatible with my understanding of God and His purpose for the Remnant church. I am not asking for anyone else to believe it, just that you hear me out and understand where I come from.

The Bible is like an (incredibly sharp) two edged sword. It can divide the soul and the spirit. Wow! That is powerful! I have heard ministerial students at PUC argue for hours on the difference between the soul and the spirit. Yet the Bible can show the difference.

It will part the joints and the marrow. Hey, I have not always been a vegetarian. I know what is in the large end of the drumstick bone -- nice juicy marrow! And the joint surface is applied directly to the marrow. It takes a sharp knife to divide the joint surface from the marrow. Well, hungry boys don't bother, they just start chewing.

But the clincher is the last phrase: "a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart." The Bible will uncover the real "you". It will show if you really desire to love and serve God, or if you elevate your own opinions above the Word of God, or direct your own life rather than to follow God's will.

Please read carefully. I don't ask anyone to believe it, only to hear what I am saying: The Bible gives evidence for faith for those who seek it, and room for doubt for those who do not.

To choose faith and to follow God is more than an intellectual assent to doctrines. It is also an emotional commitment, that comes only by the revelation of grace. Remember, there is evidence for that faith, but never proof. God declares Himself, and offers the experience of His love, but He never proves Himself to those who demand proof.

Thus a person of faith will look on the Bible much differently than one without faith. He will find that a lot of "problems" in the Bible record are suddenly clear. He will search for every line of communication God offers, including the church, the encouragement of believers, and the prophetic gift.

Specifically, regarding EGW, he will be impressed with the overwhelming evidence of the prophetic gift, and will not be distracted by the small amount of "problems" that at best lie in a gray area.

It is not always an easy road. The call to men is to repent. It hurts to find out that your are after all, a sinner. But understanding the love of God, you praise Him for saving you from ruin and offering hope for redemption.

"For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth."
--------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can you name anything that is not a messenger of God to a person oriented to the world with faith?

The universe and its dynamics are God's book.

Ellen White is part of the universe, as is the Bible, along with Adventists, ex-Adventists and the rest of the benighted (?) population of the world.

There is much to be learned from Ellen White and the Bible through our individual and collective experiences with them, in conjunction with our rich experiences with the rest of the world.

Takes a steady faith orientation and collaboration.
Maggie
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Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje)
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Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hub,
I assume (from what you've said in the past) that you are at least a second or third generation SDA. For you EW has always been part of your religious life. She comes with the territory. I, on the other hand, came to the SDA system from another place. I knew nothing about EGW. I was TOLD she is a prophet and the proof was in that, what she has written has always come true. (by their fruits...). As an adult, I have found that not everything she wrote was true - or inspired - or even ethical (what you call "gray areas" and "small amount of problems"). It may be easy for you to dismiss those gray areas because you believe in EW's validity as much as you believe in the Bible. For me, someone had to prove to me that she was legit. Just imagine if someone shows up at your door and claims to be speaking for a prophet they believe in and tells you you must accept this prophet despite some gray areas. What would your response be? SHOW ME PROOF!!

In addition, you intimate that people who don't accept the whole SDA package, including EW are trying to hold on to some precious sin; and that if we only let the Bible (and EGW, I assume) speak to our hearts then we will be attuned to God and all those gray areas will disappear - dedicate yourself to the program and all will seem good. The only sin that can be evident to you from these discussions is that I (and others) don't/can't hand over our brains to an organization or to someone somebody has called a prophet, but who has proven herself to be just plain wrong in some areas, and unethical in others.

AND, you are right. Our perception of truth comes from the platform from which we view everything. For you the unequivocal GIVEN is Ellen White. Everything else flows from that, even your understanding of the Bible - the Bible as interpreted by Ellen White. Of course you are impressed by the "overwhelming evidence of her prophetic gift". I hope you will, however, give me the intellectual and SPIRITUAL freedom to see it otherwise without relegating me to the lake of fire.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
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Username: Maggie

Post Number: 5030
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...who has proven herself to be just plain wrong in some areas, and unethical in others.

That's as good as it gets here on earth.

Interesting book we're reading, huh?

snack

Maggie
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Username: Lijhakim

Post Number: 96
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sirje,
I was trying to answer your post above mine.
What I wrote is my answer. Thank you for hearing me out.
I certainly agree that you are welcome to your beliefs, and you may after all be right!
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Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim)
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Username: Lijhakim

Post Number: 97
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

J.R., isn't about time for this thread to be split up and portions archived? Or do you want us to be able to read the whole thing to keep us on track?
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bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
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Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2460
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sirje said about Hubb......

"For you the unequivocal GIVEN is Ellen White. Everything else flows from that, even your understanding of the Bible - the Bible as interpreted by Ellen White."

This is a false idea that I know neither Hubb, myself, nor many SDA's hold to. But it is a handy "cop out" for those who oppose her ministry and mis-represent those who do.

It allows them to say, "Oh, we test our faith and understanding by the bible, and you test yours by EGW." The implication being, you don't believe the bible, EGW is your 'bible'".

As Hubb pointed, we can all believe as we please. But to deliberately mis-represent what a person has clearly stated to defend your convoluted conclusions is not only prejudice and bias, but down right sin.

If Hubb or anyone else, carefully examines EGW's testimonies and finds them in harmony with the bible, how is this placing her testimonies above the scriptures? Yet this is your implication.

You may not agree with EGW's conclusions of what the bible teaches. Hubb and I and others may. And at least some of teach from "the bible alone" exactly what she taught the bible teaches.

I don't need EGW to defend bible Adventism. She modified her thinking as any maturing rational Christian does and yet never changed her fundamental emphasis on law and gospel. She never denied the IJ. To do so would have been an abandonment of scriptures.

All bible writers modify their thinking as time passes. Yet they never deny or abandon a single principle.

All the arguments you use to dis-credit her ministry are an exact parallel to John Alfke's attack on the bible. You can reason from faith, hope and assurance to eternal life, or.....from doubt, skepticism, and unbelief to damnation.

There is no other option. The fact that you are not even "Christian" in the way you represent another person's confession of faith, can only cause others to wonder about your commitment to honesty of intention in your own faith.

If you deliberately choose to misunderstand Hubb's view of EGW and the bible, it because you want it to be according to your conclusion so you can justify your view. And this allows you to claim Hubb and others place their confidence in EGW above scripture.

Your position, Sirje, is not even logically defensible.

Sorensen
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Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam)
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Username: Onthebeam

Post Number: 40
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)