| Author |
Message |
    
Stan Ermshar (Stan_ermshar)
member
Username: Stan_ermshar
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:05 pm: |       |
Tom,
I am new here, but aren't you still a member of the SDA church?
It should be quite apparent after reading what appears to be a venting of a lot of frustration in all those posts, that it is impossible to reform the SDA church. Maybe you are coming to that realization?
Stan |
Ron Corson (Ron)
member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:59 am: | |
but how could creation have started on SUNday, when the sun wasn't created until later in the week?
Well in their defense it would not have been called sunday then, they are simply using the Julian Calendar terms. No matter what the first day of creation would be it makes sense that the first day whether it later became known for whatever planet in the solar system or mythical god does not disprove the logic that the first day was still the first day.
New Protestants.com |
robert d lackey (Boblackey)
member
Username: Boblackey
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 3:09 pm: | |
Yes Stan, Tom is still a member of the SDA church. Tom belongs to a SDA church in Washington, D. C. and has visited the Ellen White vaults several times and has seen things in them the White Estate has hidden.
There are about five different versions of Seventh-Day Adventism and these five are shades of gray. It is hard to fit one particular Adventist into any of the five boxes. You may get most of one particular Adventist into a particular box, but a leg or arm will be in another box.
Tom rejects the IJ. But among those who don't, there are several versions of it and one even fits within the gospel.
Some believe Ellen White's writings are part of the Word of God, others believe they are inspired but not to be called God's Word and still others who reject them completely.
Some reject the Trinity. Some reject original sin. Some reject the protestant doctrine that Jesus had an unfallen/sinless human nature. Some reject the protestant gospel and teach a different gospel which delays salvation and the atonement until one passes the IJ which is based on works and law.
I even know of one Adventist who believes Paul didn't write 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus and that they are second century forgeries.
The modern Methodist, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches are infested with pastors and members who believe the same and reject the virgin birth and believe the gospels are myths and tall tales laid upon some historical fact.
So Adventism isn't the only denomination with problems, but unlike say the Presbyterian church, there are conservative Adventists who teach a false gospel which clearly is legalism and cultic.
Hey John. The universe is about 14 billion years old. How can that be when a year is the amouth of time the earth goes around the sun once and the sun and the earth are LESS then 10 billion years old.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
member
Username: Maggie
Post Number: 2876
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
quote:By Bob Lackey, Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 3:09 pm:
Hey John. The universe is about 14 billion years old. How can that be when a year is the amount of time the earth goes around the sun once and the sun and the earth are LESS then 10 billion years old.
Can't wait to hear the answer to this one--universal time and space...interesting concepts....
Maggie |
John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3315
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 6:57 pm: | |
wrong thread, but the simple answer?
it all went "phoof" and expanded 12-14 byo, but it took time for the resulting hydrogen to generate stars, then the stars to blow up as supernovas, which pressure created the heavy elements, which blew into space, and later coalesced into new stars and planets as gravity attracted the elements into clumps then stars or planets....
so.... the answer, is the Big Bang came first,
and that only created hydrogen....heat, and apparently energy which we see today as leftover from the Big Bang...
it took more years than Ussher calculated for all the various stars to light up, inside giant swirling galaxies, and even longer for planets to coalesce around the stars...
ipso facto, the sun and earth must be younger than the universe. so in effect, Usher and Sister White may be on to something, just off by factors of a few million .
The earth and moon are both younger than 10 myo... 4.5 billion is todays best estimate....
if you choose to believe the government:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/contents.html
if not, try Talk Origins:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
the above site explains some of the creationist objections and beliefs..... (and explains why they are invalid!!!)
(Message edited by john8verse32 on October 30, 2007)
Short summary of every Jewish Holiday:
They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat.
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Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
member
Username: Maggie
Post Number: 2878
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:13 pm: | |
Yah, but we're talking about YEARS, John. As in absolute time and absolute space.
After Einstein, do we still get to talk thataway?
Howzat work? Like this?
quote:By kuahji: I was just thinking...perhaps this is a dumb question & the two are unrelated. But, they say the universe is roughly 14 billion years old. My question would be, relative to who?
By pervect: That's 14 billion years in cosmological time - which is measured by a co-moving clock, i.e. a clock which is moving so that the cosmic microwave background radiation (not to mention the rest of the universe) appears to be the same in all directions (isotropic).
Note that as you go back in time, the cosmic microwave background radiation goes up in frequence, so that it is no longer microwaves, but can get into the visible range (and even shorter wavelengths).
There is still a special frame, though, in which the background radiation appears to be the same in all directions (isotropic). This is the same special frame in which the distribution of matter in the universe also appears to be isotropic. This special frame is the frame for the clocks for measuring "cosmological time".
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-124013.html
Oh well...I guess I better just take their word for it that they know how to translate a 'co-moving clock' in the Big Bang to earth revolutions around the sun. |
John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3317
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
the age in years is usually related to the rate of decay of uranium, which is unlikely to have been affected by Einstein's relativity....
but the most interesting new theory is about Dark MAtter... it doesn't need to exist...
IF... one postulates a gravity change!!!! and this could upset astronomy and physics basic underpinning dramatically!!!
but it will never get us back to the mythical Biblical time frame....
but it MAY solve the problem of original origins...
for a long time, scientists wondered where all the matter was which caused galaxies to stay together since they rotate too fast for their apparent matter (they should be flying apart)...
so they postulated the existance of Dark Matter... as much as 90% of what is out there cannot be detected!!! If there was enuf Dark Matter, then the universe would slow its expansion, and ultimately retrograde into the Big Crunch...
without enuf matter augmented by this postulated Dark Matter, the universe would increase its rate of expansion, and ultimately, all would dissipate into the Big Freeze...
but the new theory just proposed suggests that maybe gravity itself increases its effects at great speed, and that could explain why all those distant galaxies are not flying apart without adding in Dark Matter....
so the universe MIGHT slow its expansion, and retrograde back into the Big Crunch, and then rebound in a new Big Bang all over again....in a never ending, never beginning cosmic cycle....
so we might actually have a 2nd chance to get things right....!!!!! but don't start packing your bags just yet... its still a long way off!!!
Short summary of every Jewish Holiday:
They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat.
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Stan Ermshar (Stan_ermshar)
member
Username: Stan_ermshar
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 1:15 am: | |
Bob Lackey wrote:
"So Adventism isn't the only denomination with problems, but unlike say the Presbyterian church, there are conservative Adventists who teach a false gospel which clearly is legalism and cultic."
----------------------------------------------
Yes Bob, I was brought up in the most leaglistic form of SDA, and have found a new church home which I am proud to be attending, and it is the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) which is very conservative, but it is closer to the truth than any other church I have found.
Stan
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Dan Brooks (Dan)
member
Username: Dan
Post Number: 243
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:15 am: | |
Wait till the heavens roll back and Christ appears. What we see has been staged. What is really going on is behind the curtain at the back of the stage.
God didn't create seeds eggs and sperm. He created trees and man. Our whole universe may be nothing but a fish bowl.
If it can't be stated simply, it's not understood. |
John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3318
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 8:17 am: | |
Wait till the heavens roll back
interesting way to explain that much of what weonce believed is "theater"!!!
so, are we to presume, from your post, that the answer to the age old question...
...what came first, the chicken or the egg?...
has already been resolved? in favor of the miraculous and instantaneous?
by the ancient campfire stories of nomadic goatherders?
question:
why did God create trees with annual growth rings in them?
possibly to deceive scientists from believing in the miraculous, in order not to have to answer their many unanswered questions in heaven?
and the tree ring history of Bristlecone Pines goes back way beyond both the flood and Usshers date which EGW copied for creation...
did God create coral reefs instantly (like Eniwitok, where we drilled down thousands of feet thru dead sea animals in order to explode the bomb)
how did God create schist instantly?
it had to start out as cooled magma, granite;
then be raised into mountains, from where it could be eroded into mud and sand in valleys, which sediments needed time to be compressed into sandstone and mudstone;
which needed time, heat and pressure of overlying materials to be heated, warped, and metamorphisized into "schist".....
see, that's where the schist hits the instantaneous fan....
to say nothing of limestone.... which is the result oftiny marine animals, living, eating, reproducing, making calcarous shells, then dieing, and being compressed under thesea into limestone, which could be later raised up into mountains, and acid rain could eat thru and make huge caves, like Ruby cave down south....
not instantaneous!!!!
but it is correct to say that its "miraculous" how nature works!!!
Short summary of every Jewish Holiday:
They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat.
|
Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
member
Username: Maggie
Post Number: 2880
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 9:59 am: | |
Well, John, if you don't believe the Prophet, perhaps you can believe the Bard?
quote:By Dan Brooks, Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:15 am: [Emphasis Maggie's]
Wait till the heavens roll back and Christ appears.
What we see has been staged.
What is really going on is behind the curtain at the back of the stage.
God didn't create seeds eggs and sperm. He created trees and man. Our whole universe may be nothing but a fish bowl.
quote:By John, Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 8:17 am:
interesting way to explain that much of what we once believed is "theater"!!!
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great glove itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
--The Tempest
The magma, the bristlecones, the schist hitting the fan...oh it's all real old, alright, but someday this reality will be rolled back like a scroll and we'll see that all the world's a stage...or so sayeth the Bard.
Maggie |
Dan Brooks (Dan)
member
Username: Dan
Post Number: 244
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 5:34 pm: | |
John,
>>possibly to deceive scientists from believing in the miraculous,<<
Just because someone presumes, does not mean they are being deceived. It is presumptuous to think that what we know about reality is barely beyond a child's belief in Santa Claus. Just think of how much more knowledge is observable with the addition of one of our 4 dimensions. An additional dimension could reveal many hundreds of times more. And who knows how many more dimensions there are?
If it can't be stated simply, it's not understood. |
John Alfke (John8verse32)
member
Username: John8verse32
Post Number: 3319
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:12 pm: | |
here's how scientists explain the formation of Ruby Cave over the last quarter of a BILLION years.....
http://www.rubyfalls.com/geology.htm
btw... thats' lots of death before Adam was seduced by Eve 6kyo.... death of mega-gazillions of tiny sea animals in order to make limestone rock....here over a thousand feet thick.
if believing the 6ky story along with the 1844 theory is a divine requirement in order to make it to heaven, there won't be many scientists there... they'll be shoveling coal into the furnaces of hades with the lawyers, pols, car dealers and a few televangelists .
Short summary of every Jewish Holiday:
They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat.
|
Thomas A Norris (Tom_norris)
member
Username: Tom_norris
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 1:03 pm: | |
Maggie Bockmann said: Tom, how 'bout letting GOD do the reproving and disciplining?
Do you think this is how things work in the J/C paradigm? Is this position supported by the Bible? I am sure this "don't rock the boat" idea makes sense to the lukewarm and confused Laodiceans. But it is not a valid NT position regardless.
In fact, the SDA's claimed that they were going to stand up and reprove all others for their false doctrine. They were supposed to give the last Gospel Message to a fallen and judgment bound world. They were the ones that were to make the final call to repent or be destroyed by the wrath of God.
Thus, Adventism is hardly a hands -off affair whereby the church sits back and lets God do the preaching, reproving, and correction.
Those like Dr. Ford and Tom Norris-- that promote serious Gospel Reform-- are being faithful to the Protestant/ Adventist paradigm, while you are taking a very different approach.
In fact, your position would have prevented the birth and development of the Church, even as it silenced the Apostles from publicly condemning those religious leaders that killed Christ. It would have also silenced the Reformers and left them mute, waiting for God to "do the reproving" of the RCC.
Do you understand this point? Can you admit your error? There could have been no Church or Reformation if the apostles or Reformers embraced your Laodicean views. Your position would have also silenced William Miller; stopping the Advent Movement from taking place.
So I have to say, "no thanks" to your proposal, just as I did to Goldstein's attempt to remove the 10 -Point Reform Agenda from the discussion. (Which has since been expanded to 12 points.)
The SDA church must be confronted with its many false doctrines whether anyone likes it or not. This is the established pattern of Gospel Reform as well as the nature of a free society.
The Advent church does not get to declare that they speak for God, and then run from the examination of their confused and blasphemous doctrines. God does not support such mindless and self-serving hypocrisy, and neither should anyone else. Enough of this hypocritical nonsense. It is time for an open and honest investigation of all SDA doctrine. With or without the leaders co-operation.
And when that takes place, it will become obvious that Adventist Reform is the only honest and theologically responsible option for those that want to see the Advent Movement rise from the ashes and complete its' Protestant Mission. There is no other path.
So the SDA's will be forced to examine what they teach, even as their confused double-talk is exposed for all to see. One way or another, the issues will become known, and so too the fact that the SDA's teach "wretched" and false doctrines that require "zealous repentance" and Reform.
There is no escaping what the SDA leaders have done, and it is time for them to be held accountable, and for them to confess their many false doctrines and repent. This is the only way to save the Advent Movement.
This is what Jesus, through the LM, is actually saying to the last church. He is demanding they take action, repent, and REFORM. Which means that the NT does not teach that "God is going to do the reforming or repenting" for anyone.
No one should expect that "God" is going to make an earthly appearance to solve the many problems of the "wretched" SDA church. Rather, heaven relies on the Spirit to give the necessary gifts to those men and women that have the courage to tell the Gospel truth, confronting and exposing many false Shepard's and wolves in the process.
So your position is ludicrous. It is not rational or Biblical. Enabling and supporting false doctrine is not a gift of the Spirit. Nor is failing to defend the Gospel from corruption and fraud.
Jesus calls the last church to ACTION. He expects them to REPENT and REFORM, before they can get to work to proclaim the last Gospel message. This is the point of the LM. Here is a specific call to action for all Christians in Laodicea. Here is a call to reform the Remnant Church and repair its "wretched" theology.
I am surprised and disappointed that you don't hear this call for Adventist REFORM. Why would anyone in his or her right mind vote for the status quo? Why would anyone familiar with the chaos and division within Adventism take a position that no repentance or reform is needed? Talk about a Laodicean position; you have placed one on the table for all to stare at. No wonder this church is referred to as being "blind," unable to see anything clearly.
I hear the call to REFORM loud and clear, and so too do MILLIONS of others, which is why they left the SDA church. But your plea for apathy and inaction is the opposite of what is needed and required. It is the opposite of what the NT teaches and the opposite of how the church has functioned in history during times of Gospel Reform.
Continued |
Thomas A Norris (Tom_norris)
member
Username: Tom_norris
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 1:04 pm: | |
Furthermore, be careful what you wish for. If God personally took up your challenge to reprove the SDA church, there would be nothing left but smoke and ashes.
The history of the Jews proves that God knows how to discipline those that fight against the Gospel. And the SDA's have declared, like the Jews, that they speak for God when they do no such thing. Such blasphemy can only bring great wrath from heaven. Is this what you want?
In fact, the LM warns the Remnant Church about the "discipline" and the wrath of God. It is not something that anyone should wish for. That is another point that you seemed to miss. Unless the SDA's accept the discipline they deserve-- and repent, they will indeed taste the wrath of God.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Heb. 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
2Tim. 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
Acts 3:19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 8:22 “Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
Woe to the SDA's if they continue to run from the issues and pretend all is well.
Woe to the Adventist if they continue to promote the law, confusing it with Gospel and thus destroying both.
Woe to any that refuse to repent and embrace Gospel reform.
Rom. 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom. 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath
Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
The SDA's were supposed to be warning the rest of the world about the Judgment of God's wrath. And they were supposed to have the solution to God's wrath, but now they stand condemned because they have embraced a false Gospel and many Old Covenant traditions.
The Adventists are in great danger of being repudiated by heaven, even as their own mission has been confused and lost for all to see.
Therefore, it is much better for the SDA's to repent and reform instead of having to watch the Advent Movement slowly self-destruct into cultic irrelevance.
Maggie said: And no, calling people insulting names doesn't "help."
Ha! If attaching negative names to certain theological positions and behavior "doesn't help", then why did Jesus, (and the other Apostles) employ this method?
And guess what? After Jesus went to heaven he continued to use this method to make his points? Thus, he hurls a number of "insulting names" at the Laodicean Church.
So heaven takes the opposite position from you on this point, and so do I.
Why did both Jesus and the Apostles insult the religious leaders of their day? Perhaps they did not know that you have determined such bluntness unhelpful and unnecessary? I guess heaven has made a mistake in this matter? This is what you are really saying. You are trying to correct heaven and change history.
This is very typical of how SDA's think. If they don't like something in the Gospel Story, they have no problem revising, changing, or ignoring whatever they don't like. This is why they are so confused and wrong about most everything--including the Sabbath. They follow whatever they want and spin the Bible to fit their confusion. But in the end they are left with much false doctrine and few members.
Maggie said: As someone once said, "Choose your enemies carefully, for you will become just like them."
Who said this? Was it Jesus or one of his apostles? If not, don't bother to introduce such nonsense into this discussion.
The Gospel Story is very clear about who is the enemy and who is not. In fact, the J/C paradigm is based on the idea that God has an enemy that tried to take over heaven. And that this enemy has been exiled to earth --the source of all evil. Thus Satan is the enemy of mankind.
So those that choose the side of God automatically have an enemy. There is no choice in the matter. Likewise, anyone that repudiates the Gospel is an enemy of heaven. There is no sense in pretending otherwise. Those that support and embrace the Gospel becomes the enemy of those that don't.
Gal. 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Continued |
Thomas A Norris (Tom_norris)
member
Username: Tom_norris
Post Number: 1734
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 1:05 pm: | |
Maggie quipped: You can't escape the Hall of Mirrors, Tom.
While it is true that the doctrines of the Advent Movement, (as well as all others in Laodicea), resembles a confused circus maze, there is a true path that cuts through all this endless propaganda and misdirection.
Thus, for those that want to escape the dishonest and cultic chaos of Adventism, there is a way. It is called Adventist Reform. Here is the solution for all that are trapped in the SDA Hall of Smoke and Mirrors. Adventist Reform is the Way.
Maggie said: Adventists gotta be right, you gotta be right, I gotta be right, we all gotta be right.
You are not paying attention. The LM message declares that the last church is NOT RIGHT about anything. While they think of themselves as CORRECT and "rich" in doctrine, needing no reform, Jesus disagrees and tells them they are rotten to the core. Which is why the last church is the worst of all the seven churches.
So in spite of all those many claims by SDA's, (and others), that they are right and that they have all the truth, blah, blah, blah, it cannot be so and it isn't so. Most all of us know this by now. The Advent Movement is so wrong and confused about so many things that it is amazing that anyone would fight against Reform. Very strange.
What is the point of pretending?
Today, most all in the SDA Community realizes that Traditional Adventism is wrong about many things. So what is to be done? Pretend otherwise? This is what Goldstein does, and so too all the hierarchy. But this is not a proper response to so much error and blasphemy.
Rather, the LM is calling for the church to admit its many errors, repent and get its doctrines correct. Don't shoot those messengers that are trying to co-operate with heaven and turn things around.
Maggie said: But...ain't none of us right, no not one.
So what is this supposed to mean? That the church is allowed to preach false doctrine and steal people's money by the fraud of tithe? That the Old Covenant Sabbath is to be used as a club to make people feel guilty and hopeless?
Your attitude is hardly Protestant.
Is this what you would have said to Luther and the Reformers? Would you lecture Luther and tell him to "let GOD do the reproving and disciplining?" Would you tell him to stop calling the Pope bad names and point out to him that his ego is out of control and that he is not "right" either? If so, that would make you a supporter of Rome and the many outrageous lies that they too preached in the name of God.
So all SDA's are going to have to make a decision about whether they are going to take their religion seriously. They are going to have to decide if they are Protestant or Roman Catholic. There is no in-between place.
Those that are PROTESTANT are expected to stand up and defend the Gospel, even as they clearly point out doctrinal error. Those that are Protestant do not compromise about doctrine or truth, nor are they fearful to confront a wicked religious Hierarchy.
I have made my choice. I am a Protestant and an Adventist. I have no idea what you are or what you aspire to become, but you are not speaking like the Apostles, Reformers, or the Adventist Pioneers.
So why are you here? We know why Pastor Don is here. Are you also here to excuse and enable the SDA Hierarchy? Are you so confused that you can't tell what side of the debate you find yourself?
Continued |
Thomas A Norris (Tom_norris)
member
Username: Tom_norris
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 1:08 pm: | |
J. R. Layman jabbed: So Tom, when did you close down your beer and LIQUOR store!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like I said JR, I never owned a Liquor Store. But I did get out the retail package goods business (Beer and Wine) about 25 years ago. How is that relevant to this discussion?
This SDA idea about alcohol being a sin comes directly from the Koran, not the Bible. I am not a Muslim, nor do I wish to follow this religious fraud in any manner. Why do the SDA's want to follow the Koran? Why do they pretend the Bible teaches abstinence when it does not?
While we are all sinners regardless of our circumstances or employment, do not think that wine in the Bible is grape juice or that the Muslim doctrine of abstinence is valid, as the confused SDA's have taught for so many years. This is ludicrous.
John Alfke said: Dr. Ford has led the way for the Advent people to return to the correct fundamentals, but hasn't he left the church? Willingly or otherwise?
What difference does that make? Luther was also thrown out of the church, so what? It only proved that the church was corrupt and wicked. The same thing happened to William Miller and all the early Adventists.
So what?
This is a normative situation whenever Gospel Reformers confront false doctrine. Glacier View only proved that the SDA's do not understand the Gospel or the Three Angels Messages. When they come to their senses and repent, (if they ever do), Dr. Ford is ready to re-join the Advent Movement. But it must first repent and embrace the Protestant Gospel.
John said: doesn't Dr. Ford now teach that the earth is older than 6ky? Doesn't he even (heaven help us) admit like the pope that "some" evolution appears to have taken place?
Yes, Dr. Ford's view of Genesis reflects a mature and educated view of scripture as opposed to a fundamentalist mindset.
Stan Ermshar asked: Tom, I am new here, but aren't you still a member of the SDA church?
Welcome Stan. Glad to see new people joining in the discussion about Adventist Reform.
Yes, I have been an SDA all my life and still am one today. So I know every trick in the SDA book, and there are many. Therefore, it is difficult to try and fool me about anything Adventist, even though some still try to double-talk their way around the issues. I hope you are genuinely looking for truth?
Stan said: It should be quite apparent after reading what appears to be a venting of a lot of frustration in all those posts, that it is impossible to reform the SDA church. Maybe you are coming to that realization?
Why would anyone think that reformation is impossible? If Judaism could be reformed, so too can Adventism. Thus the Church represents reformed Judaism, even though the Jewish leaders refused Gospel reform.
So reform happened anyway, even as Judaism was destroyed by the Romans, leaving Christianity to flourish and grow. The fact that most people incorrectly think Christianity a Gentile paradigm hides this important truth of its Jewish pedigree. All true Christian doctrine is Jewish. Thus Christianity represents reformed Judaism. Proving that reform is not only possible, but normative within the J/ C paradigm.
There is no reason to think that Gospel Reform is over or that the church no longer needs reform. In fact, the LM demands that the last church, meaning all denominations, repent and reform. So it must be possible because this is what heaven is expecting and demanding.
Furthermore, in Rev 18, the last church is portrayed as reformed and correctly proclaiming the Gospel. This is the result of repentance and reform that has yet to take place within the Laodicean Community. So prophecy, as well as history, also demonstrates that reform is possible and expected.
So NT prophecy does not embrace the view that church reform is "impossible". Rather, it shows the opposite. It predicts Gospel Reform. Why? Because Protestant Reform is part of Gospel eschatology and prophecy.
Thus one way or another, reform is going to take place with or without the co-operation of the Jews, RC's, or the SDA's. God's will is to be accomplished regardless of the stupidity and evil of men.
Luke 19:39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”
Luke 19:40 But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
At the end of time, knowledge about the Word will be increased. Thus, the full and complete articulation of the Gospel will do its work prior to the Second Coming regardless of what the SDA's do. The Laodicean Church will be confronted with their false Gospel as well as the nearness of the Judgment.
However, there is no guarantee that the SDA's are the ones in Rev 18 completing this grand work of the church. It could very well be another denomination or spin off group that comes out of the SDA's. Time will tell.
But regardless, prophecy shows that the last church does get the job done at the end of time. The only question is this: will the SDA's be associated with the final articulation of the Gospel and the Loud Cry?
At this point is does not look good for them. Pity.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal)
Moderator
Username: Daneanderthal
Post Number: 2335
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 6:55 pm: | |
OK Tom, I admit it was a jab  gotta keep you on your toes. You being such a theologian of Adventism, such as Sorensen is (or claims to be).
Anyway, I just got back for a trip to Lubbock's "Short Road." So I'm no saint either--but then I did have the HONESTY to have my name removed from the church books!
When I was a kid in N.D., the local Studebaker dealer...was removed from the church rolls...because he had a cigarette mach' in his dealership! My bet is that when you owned the beer and wine store, you also sold cigarettes?
"Council approves discussion on strip annexation
Sarah Whetstone
Officials approved discussion about extending the city borders to include 175 acres south of 98th Street. By the end of the year, "The Strip" may be inside Lubbock city limits.
If the city adopts the resolution, the buying and selling of packaged alcohol will occur within Lubbock city limits, Mayor David Miller said.
Miller, who was one of six city officials to pass the resolution allowing further discussion of the idea, said that even though the stores on The Strip will be allowed to continue to sell packaged alcohol as a part of the City of Lubbock, the current status of Lubbock County as dry will remain in effect in all other areas.
"Should the citizens of Lubbock want to extend the sale of alcohol into the city, they would have to gather signatures on a petition," Miller said. "They would then have to present it to the county commissioners’ court, and they would have to put it on a ballot, and the citizens would vote it up or down."
Miller said that a prime reason for wanting to annex the area located south of 98th street, east of Avenue P, west of the "short road" and north of the half section line of Block E (according to the city council agenda), is to collect primarily sales and property taxes generated from alcohol sales in that area.
"By the end of the first fiscal year (the city) could have about $500,000 in sales tax and about $33,000 in property taxes," Miller said. (Greedy--------Grubby Hands of the, City "Fathers"......all they can think about is adding to our tax load!)
According to city proceedings, the process of annexing The Strip would start Oct. 12 when the Lubbock City Council conducts the first public hearing concerning the issue. The council must then hold a special meeting and hold a second public hearing by Oct. 19. The next step would be to pass the Annexation Ordinance on the first reading Nov. 9, then pass it on the second reading Nov. 21.
Not all city council members agreed with the idea as Councilman Floyd Price was the lone vote against further discussion of annexation."
Shoot, ole Floyd would do that......FWIW....He actually OWNS the Regional SDA Conference Church building here. One of two privately owned church buildings in the Southwestern Union. When he was a cop....my housekeeper who knew him when he wore shorts.....said he'd give his own mother a ticket! 
Tom
Re:"Yes, I have been an SDA all my life and still am one today. So I know every trick in the SDA book"
OK, you KNEW the rules of the SDA church...........weather you disagree with them....wouldn't the HONEST thing to do, would to have had your name REMOVED from the Church Books, if you were selling some products that CLEARLY violated those "rules," irrespective of how much you disagreed with them and thought them wrong? Sometimes I think that only Elaine and I are the HONEST people around here!
OTOH, since when the church was willed the "Paradise Lounge" in Las Vegas (someone went laughing to their grave! ) I guess I really can't condemn you since the official Adventist Church in the name of the Pacific Union, continued to operate one of Las Vegas’ leading Strip Joints, (reportedly having GREAT Table/Lap Dancing!} as per your buddy Neal Wilson’s ORDERS!….....Till they could sell it!  FWIW, whomever gave it to the church had a great sense of humor!
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