Archive through August 30, 2008 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Adventist of Tomorrow » Issues of the Adventist Church » Historical Insights into Adventism and EGW » Archive through August 30, 2008 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Neal Walls (Nwalls)
member
Username: Nwalls

Post Number: 560
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 6:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not accept something just because someone's website says it is so. Those who want to reveal "secret" documents, like this book which survived the "destruction of the 500", take pictures. Bring in sworn statements of those who saw the document and can attest to what it said.

With the history that has been revealed over the last 30 years I give more credibility to those that quote hidden documents than I do those that deny them unless it comes from the White Estate itself. Even from them I would still have some level of uncertainty about their truthfulness. After all, they do have the Truth to protect.

If the White Estate were to say it was a bogus or forged document then let's hear it from them.

In some cases silence is evidence.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maggie Bockmann (Maggie)
member
Username: Maggie

Post Number: 4692
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Our times are times of openness.

This openness has been pried open by force.

I have been very open here.

You even admit we have forced you to change your tack.

And still you talk in circles:

You want EGW stripped of all her authority. Walter Martin didn't even push for that. "Just admit she was a sinner, like the rest of us," he seems to be saying.

HOW CAN YOU EVEN SAY THAT???

Several times I posted the video where he's trying to get William Johnsson to say what would make him call EGW a false prophet, and I pointed it specifically at you.

Johnsson just kept coming back with unctuous responses, which, frankly, reminded me of you.

I am flabbergasted at your selective memory.

John noticed that too.

You say I want to strip her of her authority, but at least I am above board about it.

You want to selectively strip her of the authority behind her statements of authority while maintaining her status as a prophet.

You have to be a 'higher' prophet in order to do that! That's just absurd!!!

If you want to rework this thing, start with what's she actually said and did. There's no magic Delete Button on history.

EGW gave you no leave to rework her whole project, and to do so just compounds the craziness exponentially.

Once SDAs face what they're doing, they won't have a prophet anymore, because they will have taken back their power and grown up, IMO.

Secrecy gives birth to conspiracy theories.

Secrecy covers conspiracies, or there would be no need for secrecy to begin with.
Maggie
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4967
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WIELAND-SHORT LETTER

quote:

Potomac University, January 21, 1959

"COPY"

Elder W. R. Beach, Secretary; General Conference of S.D.A.; Washington 12, D.C.

Dear Elder Beach:

A little over eight years ago we presented a certain document to the General Conference Committee in which we endeavored to express frankly our deep conviction and concern. We left the matter before the Lord and in your care, and thereafter refrained from agitation or pressing our views before the Committee or the church. We have always felt it improper for us to appeal a matter such as this from the General Conference to the church at large. Hence our consistent and persistent refusal to grant anyone permission to reproduce our document.

The 70-page document which we prepared recently was not presented to you with a desire to abandon our policy of the previous eight years. We decided to prepare it mainly because in a previous document rather widely circulated, our honesty and integrity were called in question, our manuscript being represented as a "serious reflection upon the literary ethics of its authors." We felt that all would recognize we had a right at least to attempt to clear our characters of such an implication.

Perhaps it was merely a selfish concern which motivated us. We recognize that a more perfect faith might have trusted the Lord to vindicate our literary ethics without our saying anything in self-defense. Perhaps our second document is a kind of Ishmael-treatise, written prematurely, in place of waiting patiently in faith for an Isaac defense to have come in due time providentially. Perhaps we pulled too hard on the oar of "works".

Whatever may be our mistake, we wish to state herewith our desire to leave this matter, to drop it henceforth and to continue as in the past to refrain from any agitation whatsoever or the pressing of our view upon the General Conference or the church. If our views and convictions are of the evil one, surely we must not press them. If, on the other hand, there is any truth in our presentations, the Lord can well take care of it without any assistance from ourselves. We do wish to say again, brethren, that we believe the corporate Seventh-day Adventist church is the one true remnant church, led of God, and we are thus happy to resign the whole matter to the disposition of Providence.

We return to our mission field, therefore, with no desire to make an issue of our views there of elsewhere. We are grateful that it could be said of our service during the past eight years, "The two brethren returned to their fields of labor and threw themselves wholeheartedly into their work of proclaiming the gospel message." We earnestly pray now that by the grace of the Lord the same may truthfully be said of our future service also.

Sincerely yours, S/ R. J. Wieland; D. K. Short.

Source: A Warning and Its Reception [part 6], page 396


Comments

There exist many, many documents. Why profile this one?
I recently received an email from someone who reads atomorrow posts, but doesn't enter into the dialogue. After commending the quality of my posts, he cautioned me to be careful. People can use one's posts in less than honorable ways; Unfair editing, etc.

Some here have suggested that my views are not Adventist views and that the only reason why I haven't been fired is that officials are tolerating me or maybe they don't read my posts.

So, I have been thinking over such things.

As I passed the president's office this morning, he wanted to know how our boys are doing. They graduated from this school. After discussing them, I decided to let him know about my atomorrow posts and discussions.

"My ideas posted there are not always conventional and they may come home to roost," I told him.

"If they do, you will be the first to know," he assured me.

I believe that many SDA officials have developed their professionalism since the days of my youth, the 50's and 60's. I also believe that the turbulant decades of the 70's and 80's have helped administrators decide how to deal with dissenters or unconventional thinkers. I trust my church administrators to deal fairly with me.

Then, I thought of a story about Wieland and Short:
They came to the GC with their document, submitted it, were dealt with rudely, told to "go back to Africa and be quiet" and they did. They followed the directions of the GC.
This letter shows their attitude toward the GC officials. It can serve as a prototype on how to present new thinking. In my situation, if my overseers advise me not to present my thinking here at atomorrow, I would most likely follow their counsel. I would do this for practical financial reasons, of course. But, I also believe in the team-player approach to church matters.

Ellen White's counsels regarding pork, as a point of concern: When it was first agitated, she said that if the time should come to take a stand on the use of pork, the church would stand together on the matter. I think she advised the same thing regarding the Sabbath, early on.

I believe protocols are needed for people who have a new idea. While pastoring, I read that Washington Adventist Hospital allowed abortions while down the street the Roman Catholic Hospital did not. I am strongly against abortion as a common form of birth control. At one point, I called the GC and talked to one of the officers there. He said, "If you feel strongly about this, follow the steps and seek to get it on the agenda for the next GC session." After thinking about this, I talked with my local conference president. Later, I heard that he wondered if I had enough to do because I seemed overly concerned about the matter. In reality, it would be a miracle if someone in my position could move the church on any matter.

Ford, on the other hand, held considerable influence in the church. What if Ford had followed Wieland and Short's approach? I.e., Lay it at the door of the church leaders and go back to teaching. Or, what if Ford had used the political processes of the church to try to get the doctrinal matter to come up at GC Session? Glacier View was not such a process. Ford was all alone.

The GC in session may have arrived at the same conclusion as Glacier View, I don't know.

Was Ford politically naive? Am I?



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2391
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don said.....

"This letter shows their attitude toward the GC officials. It can serve as a prototype on how to present new thinking. In my situation, if my overseers advise me not to present my thinking here at atomorrow, I would most likely follow their counsel. I would do this for practical financial reasons, of course. But, I also believe in the team-player approach to church matters."

You may be right, Don. On the other hand, many of us are grateful that Luther did not have your attitude. But I think your attitude is by far the "typical" attitude of most people who "work" for the organization. And many in Luther's day held the same view you do. Even Father Staupitz.

Sorensen
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4969
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

many of us are grateful that Luther did not have your attitude

Bill, I appreciate your response to this.

Are there issues which are worth dying for, resigning for? Yes. Which ones are they? I don't know. Luther tried for some time to change the church. If, the church had not fought him in the way they did, he probably would not have broken with them.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ron Corson (Ron)
member
Username: Ron

Post Number: 2000
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don wrote:
Ford, on the other hand, held considerable influence in the church. What if Ford had followed Wieland and Short's approach? I.e., Lay it at the door of the church leaders and go back to teaching. Or, what if Ford had used the political processes of the church to try to get the doctrinal matter to come up at GC Session? Glacier View was not such a process. Ford was all alone.


Ford was hardly alone. In fact the majority of Theologians at the conference agreed with him. It was the bureaucracy that turned upon him. Violating the agreed upon statements made at the conference, the conference called for by the denomination leaders.

You should not really try and blame Ford for the actions of the Church. Especially considering that today the church does not even hold to the interpretations it was trying to defend at Glacier View.
New Protestants.com
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4972
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You should not really try and blame Ford for the actions of the Church.

I was not meaning to blame Ford.

The following is a portion of the interview with Des Ford on September 23, 1980.

quote:

Interview with Desmond Ford

Spectrum magazine, vol. 11, no. 2 (Nov. 1980), pages 53-61.

SPECTRUM: One of the criticisms that has been made quite frequently is that if you had not allowed your sanctuary manuscript to get out, the church would have been able to solve this problem in a more quiet and satisfactory way. How do you respond to this accusation that you are not really playing as a team man?

FORD: I did not leak the document; I had never at any time given the document or sections of it away to anybody. I have been very, very careful and have very close, intimate friends who would have loved to have had the document ahead of time, or chapters of it, but the document did not get out through me. However, it would seem to me that it is a medieval mentality to think that truth can be kept in a corner or that even criticisms about truth can be kept in a corner. As long as we treat the church people as children, they will behave like children and not gather to themselves the burden a responsible adult should carry in taking the gospel to the world.

SPECTRUM: It sounds as if you do not regret having spoken as you did on October 27, but let me ask you this question, which is probably not a fair question for anyone: If you had the last year to live over, thinking about the Forum meeting, the manuscript, Glacier View, all of that, would you have done anything differently?

FORD: Most things I do, I do very imperfectly, and I am conscious of that all the time. But as regards conscious volition and choices, I doubt if any major choice would have been different. I have been very grateful that the church has taken the matter seriously. I think a lesser administrator than Elder Wilson would have swept it under the rug and ignored it. I was grateful for the opportunity the General Conference gave me to write the manuscript. I only have praise for Elder Wilson's attitude through that time. I am quite grateful for the year, and I would not consciously have chosen otherwise.

SPECTRUM: Time and again during the past few weeks, you have expressed your confidence in our church leaders. Do you maintain this confidence, or do you feel they treated you unjustly?

FORD: No, I do not feel they treated me unjustly. I have confidence in their well-meaning intentions. I do not have great confidence in some of their understandings of the Bible. I must be frank about that. My experience in mixing with administrators from the top down is that these men mean well, but are tremendously busy. In other words, the urgent takes the place of the important. An administrator is like a man in a swamp with his rifle raised, picking off the alligators one by one as they come toward him, instead of being able to get out and drain the swamp. It is the great gulf fixed between administrators and scholars that is the root of the problem. I see no malice in the men who dealt with me. I have the highest of regard for the men with whom I associated. [56]

SPECTRUM: To follow up on your analogy of the swamp, I am wondering if there is not wisdom in getting out of the swamp when there is an opportunity offered. Some have thought that such an opportunity occurred on Friday morning at Glacier View, when we understand that you had already indicated that you could support and preach the consensus statement as you understood it and it was voted by the people there. In your judgment, why wasn't the process ended there? Why didn't everyone just go home and say, "We have problems that need further study, but we have unity on the important issues"?

FORD: I expressed my willingness to bury the sanctuary topic. I mentioned to the brethren in whole assembly there that I had only spoken publicly on the issue once in 30 years and that by request. On Friday afternoon, I expressed, to the brethren that met with me, a little group of administrators (there were no scholars there), that I was quite happy with the essence of the consensus statement and could preach it in sincerity. This they found very hard to believe. So it seems to me that there must have been some other issues.

SPECTRUM: I would like to come to those other factors in a moment, but first one more question regarding the process at Glacier View. How could the brethren have responded differently to the events at Glacier View? What do you think you might have done differently if you had been Elder Neal Wilson?

FORD: I suspect I would have made many more mistakes than Brother Wilson. I am a very poor administrative type. But I do hope someone would have said to me, "Des, don't dare make a decision in PREXAD as to whether a man is a heretic unless you have biblical scholars present. Don't dare make a decision about heresy unless you are sure you have the actual data from the men that are involved in it all day, every day. Don't dare do it on the basis of what administrators say." I think this, perhaps, is the greatest problem in the situation. Of course, it is easier for me to be critical than correct, and I can only say, had I been in Neal Wilson's place, I might have made a dozen such mistakes.

SPECTRUM: In the months prior to Glacier View, I heard you indicate several times your belief that the theologians and biblical scholars in the church were in essential agreement with your position, yet published reports from Glacier View seem to indicate the opposite. Was your assessment of the scholars' position in error?

FORD: I would agree with Dr. Ray Cottrell's appraisal of that situation. He has gone on record as saying that 90 percent of the scholars would agree with the main essence of my positions. I know personally, from talking to these men over a period of about twenty-five years, where many of them individually stand. Now I could name men that do not stand where I stand—for example, the men whom I understand had the most to do with the special issue of Ministry, men such as Drs. Shea, Hasel and Damsteegt. These are diligent scholars whom I personally respect and who would not agree with my positions. But they are a minority. I am quite certain that the majority of theologians and biblical scholars do hold the major positions that I hold, and I could name the men who have individually told me so...



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4973
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FORD: I expressed my willingness to bury the sanctuary topic. I mentioned to the brethren in whole assembly there that I had only spoken publicly on the issue once in 30 years and that by request. On Friday afternoon, I expressed, to the brethren that met with me, a little group of administrators (there were no scholars there), that I was quite happy with the essence of the consensus statement and could preach it in sincerity. This they found very hard to believe. So it seems to me that there must have been some other issues.

The consensus statement was published in:

The Adventist Review, 157/41 (4 Sept. 1980): 12-15 (A DJVU file); and in

Ministry, 53/10 (A pdf file) (Oct. 1980): 16-19 (A DJVU File).

Notice that Ford was willing to do the same thing that Wieland and Short did; drop the subject, bury the topic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2392
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don said.....

"Bill, I appreciate your response to this.

Are there issues which are worth dying for, resigning for? Yes. Which ones are they? I don't know. Luther tried for some time to change the church. If, the church had not fought him in the way they did, he probably would not have broken with them."

This is a two edged sword, isn't it Don?

If Luther had not "challenged" the church, they would not have challenged him. And if they had not "Challenged" him, he would not have challenged them.

No doubt true. And, of course, we would have had no "reformation".


In most cases, those who challenged the church were not supported financially by the church as Luther was. He put everything on the line including his life.

But most, like Elijah, Amos, John the Baptist and even Jesus drew no financial support from "the church".

This eliminated at least one problem in their "cross bearing".

I am keenly aware the church has no financial "hold" on me and thus I have more freedom in what I say. But I still have "church" responsibility in what I say or do. I am still accountable to Jesus.

I am also keenly aware that most people can scarcely comprehend the possibility that loyalty to Jesus and His word may put them ultimately in conflict with the SDA church. Such an idea does not compute with most. So, they feel no obligation to consider such a possibility and relate to the implication.

Only when this possibility is a reality in the minds of church members, will the members demand accountability of leadership. As long as they hold some sort of "unconditional election" for the SDA church, they will always remain Laodecian.

Poor Andreasen almost lost his mind because he could not reconcile this possibility and it almost drove him crazy. "Unconditional election" will do that to a person who thinks the church can not possibly fail. Had he understood the truth about election and how it applies, he could have simply gone on about his business without such terrible paranoia.

Jesus is a classic example. He knew the Jewish nation was "elected", but He also knew their election was conditional. This left Him free to "be about His Father's business" without the terrible pressure of trying to "force" the Jewish nation to repent. And could finally say, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

How many SDA could relate to Adventism in the same way? Not many. Like the Jewish people who clung to their leaders, so people cling to the leaders of the church. Vainly hopeing and believing that no matter what, they will somehow, "Do the right thing." And the devil takes advantage of this mentality both by lay people and leaders to continue to corrupt the church knowning no one will "demand" accountability. So like the Jews, So like Rome, So like Adventism. And the devil is winning. And will continue to win until enough people realize their obligation to demand accountability or see the church fail. There is no other option.

Unless we believe somehow God will "hocus-pocus" the church and the church will be holy. No way.

Because I understand the issue, I am free. Just as Jesus was. I still have high hopes and a measure of faith concerning the churches destiny, but I am not blind to the real possibility that such will never come to pass.

In the mean time, like Jesus, I can "be about my Father's business" without trying to "force" the church to repent. Had Andreasen and others who struggled with the church (including Brinsmead)understood this concept, they would have had a reasonable measure of peace and freedom.

This is the attitude of all true prophets including EGW. She held no delusion of the church being unconditionally elected. But she did have a tremendous faith in what could be accomplished and certainly hoped God would if and when the church "repented". God is waiting. Me too.

Sorensen
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4975
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I see no problem with the understanding you have given in this last post. Rather, I agree with the freedom such a stance brings to a person.

Re: EGW. I recall reading her addressing royalties for her writing. She felt such royalties were necessary so she could remain financially separate from the organization. This allowed her to speak to issues without financial complications and interference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2393
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Only the message is "elected" and only those who support "the message" will "triumph".

There is no election outside the message. And the message is so convoluted with "babylon" confusion that few can even define it in its biblical context.

You could easily pull 10 books from the SDA book store that contradict each other and none are a clear presentation of bible truth.

I agree with Tom on one issue. Pluralism is destroying the SDA church. Martin Weber wrote a book entitled "Who's got the truth?" or some such name. He exposed a number of errors by church theologians.

Apparently they "bribed" him to shut up and sit down.

Now he is editor of "the mid-america Outlook" and when they interviewed him about some of his books, namely "Hot Potatoes" book I and book II, he said I am no longer into this kind of dialogue. He concluded by saying "I am now a SDA sweet potato."

I sent him an E-mail. And I suggested he was more like a SDA "couch potato".

What does he care? He now has a cushy job making plenty of bucks.

You will see there is no letters section in this magazine. He did not like the challenge against women's ordination after he ran an article on the subject supporting it. And I didn't write it.

Their QOD forum last year was a joke. They had no intentions of discussing or correcting any errors in the book. It was a political move to unite the various factions in the name of "love and unity."

Apparently it worked. At least to some degree.

Goldstein's challenge of Ratzlaff was typical. Let's see him do a serious challenge to some error advocated in the church itself. It must be nice to stand on the porch and throw rocks at the bad dog who ran away from home. He has a whole pack of bad dogs in his living room.

The SDA church today is worse than Rome. It's all about politics, money and power, isn't it?

Does the SDA church still defend "some" truth? Of course. Sabbath, state of the dead, and second coming. But none of these issue are "present truth" in the SDA church. Present truth for the church is worship styles, dress, cerebration music, women elders.....etc.

Let's not discuss these issues. Too devisive. Of course, we expect others to leave their churches and "join the remnant" no matter what the cost. They should suffer all things for Jesus sake. Abandon their family, friends and all other associations if necessary. Do I agree? Yes, but only if the church will challenge itself on the issues that confront its own spirituality.

Some people may be more inclined to worship Jesus on the wrong day, than worship the devil on the right day. Jesus may feel the same way.

Of course, eventually, all God's children will worship Jesus on the right day. And this is the final ideal. But not today. Why would the Holy Spirit call people "out of Babylon" into "babylon"? Not likely.

A closing question.....

How many think these words of Jesus have any viable application to the SDA church today?

"You travel all over the world to make one convert, and when he is made, you make him two fold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Apparently this scripture as well as huge portions of the bible could never apply to the SDA church. Of course the Jews and Catholics think the same thing.

Sorensen
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2394
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some EGW quotes.....

-TI- Testimonies for the Church Volume One
-CN- 102
-CT- Sketch of Experience
-PR- 02
-PG- 577
-TEXT-
In this state of things it was decided that we would return
to Battle Creek and there remain while the roads were in a
muddy, broken-up condition, and that I would there
complete No. 12. My husband was very anxious to see his brethren
at Battle Creek and speak to them and rejoice with them
in the work which God was doing for him. I gathered up my
writings, and we started on our journey. On the way we held
two meetings in Orange and had evidence that the church

578

was profited and encouraged. We were ourselves refreshed
by the Spirit of the Lord. That night I dreamed that I was in
Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and
saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They
looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned
to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would
look again. The scene was changed. The company now
presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in
his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the
one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying
three times: "This house is proscribed. The goods must be
confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order." Terror
seized me, and I ran through the house, out of the north
door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of
whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear
of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might
weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever
I turned. I repeated frequently: "If I could only understand
this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have
done!"

-TI- Evangelism
-CN- 6
-CT- The Public Effort
-PR- 02
-PG- 137
-TEXT-
<SB Refrain From All Theatrical Display. <EB--I have a
message for those in charge of our work. Do not
encourage the men who are to engage in this work to
think that they must proclaim the solemn, sacred
message in a theatrical style. Not one jot or tittle of
anything theatrical is to be brought into our work. God's
cause is to have a sacred, heavenly mold. Let everything
connected with the giving of the message for this
time bear the divine impress. Let nothing of a
theatrical nature be permitted, for this would spoil the
sacredness of the work."

-BC- 1SM
-TI- Selected Messages Book 1
-CN- 25
-CT- The Foundation of Our Faith
-PR- 02
-PG- 204
-TEXT-
The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition
that a great reformation was to take place among
Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would
consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars
of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization.
Were this reformation to take place, what would result?
The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given
to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion
would be changed. The fundamental principles that have
sustained the work for the last fifty years would be
accounted as error. A new organization would be
established. Books of a new order would be written. A system
of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders
of this system would go into the cities, and do a

205

wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly
regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be
allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The
leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but
God being removed, they would place their dependence
on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their
foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and
tempest would sweep away the structure."

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2395
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

-TI- The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four
-CN- 27
-CT- The Snares of Satan
-PR- 03
-PG- 339
-TEXT-
"Through those that have a form of godliness but
know not the power, we can gain many who would
otherwise do us great harm. Lovers of pleasure
more than lovers of God will be our most effective
helpers. Those of this class who are apt and intelligent
will serve as decoys to draw others into our
snares. Many will not fear their influence, because
they profess the same faith. We will thus lead them
to conclude that the requirements of Christ are less
strict than they once believed, and that by conformity

340

to the world they would exert a greater influence
with worldlings. Thus they will separate from
Christ; then they will have no strength to resist our
power, and erelong they will be ready to ridicule
their former zeal and devotion."

TI- Selected Messages Book 1
-CN- 24
-CT- The Alpha and the Omega
-PR- 04
-PG- 196
-TEXT-
<SB <SI Sophistries That Undermine the Pillars <EI <EB

My message to you is: No longer consent to listen
without protest to the perversion of truth. Unmask the
pretentious sophistries which, if received, will lead ministers
and physicians and medical missionary workers to
ignore the truth. Every one is now to stand on his guard.
God calls upon men and women to take their stand under
the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel. I have been
instructed to warn our people; for many are in danger

197

of receiving theories and sophistries that undermine the
foundation pillars of the faith."

-PC- RH
-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald
-DT- 01-11-87
-AT- Our Present Duty and the Coming Crisis
-PR- 02
-TEXT-
Already the judgments of God are abroad in the land, as seen in storms,
in floods, in tempests, in earthquakes, in perils by land and by sea. The
great I am is speaking to those who make void his law. When God's wrath is
poured out upon the earth, who will then be able to stand? Now is the time
for God's people to show themselves true to principle. When the religion of
Christ is most held in contempt, when his law is most despised, then should
our zeal be the warmest and our courage the most unflinching. To stand in
defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the
battles of the Lord when champions are few,--this will be our test. At this
time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their
cowardice, and loyalty from their treason. The nation will be on the side of
the great rebel leader."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4991
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, August 29, 2008 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Questions on Doctrine and Kingdom of the Cults

Questions on Doctrine is available online here.

Walter Martin's assessment of Adventism can be found in his book, The Kingdom of the Cults. It is available online here (a pdf file). Appendix C starting on page 641 is entitled, The Puzzle of Seventh-day Adventists. This edition deals with Adventism up to the late 1990's.

Long ago, as a youth, I recall reading his work along with Questions on Doctrine. I was favorably impressed with both. Martin comes across as a fair-minded fellow believer in Jesus Christ. QOD seemed to offer sensible, level-headed answers to all those questions. Neither work is inerrant, of course. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4992
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 5:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adventism's Golden Age and Dark Ages - Ralph Larson

quote:

LandMarks Magazine, October 2007

My Work in Historic Adventism, By Ralph Larson

[Editor’s Note: Deeply saddened by the passing of Dr. Ralph Larson, often regarded as the patriarch of historic Adventism, we reprint this article that was first published in the July 1996 LandMarks and which presents his view of his work.]

What we do is closely related to what we are. It is said of Christ that His nature and His work are inseparably intertwined and interwoven with each other, and the same is true to a lesser degree of all of us. We are what we do and we do what we are.

Consider my life span. I became a Seventh-day Adventist in the year 1936, when I was sixteen years old. Although I did not realize it at the time, I was a very fortunate and privileged person, because being baptized at this particular time gave me the privilege of living some thirty years during the Golden Age of Adventism, from 1936 to 1966. The tragic book Questions On Doctrine, [Review and Herald Publishing Association, Washington, D. C., 1957] which brought the Golden Age of Adventism to an end, was published in 1957. It took about ten years for it to really have much influence upon the church. But by 1966 the dire influence of that fateful volume had become widespread, the precious unity and harmony of the church had been destroyed, and the Dark Ages of Adventism had begun, and have continued for thirty years (until 1996). Thus my Christian life has consisted of thirty years in the Golden Age of Adventism and thirty years in the Dark Ages of Adventism. I am able to make comparisons.

What were the characteristics of the Golden Age of Adventism that I experienced from 1936 until 1966? Not the absence of problems. We had our share of them. Not the favor of the world. The world and the worldly churches cordially hated us and maliciously lied about us. Not wealth. The depression was still in force. But we had something far more precious than any of these things. We had unity and harmony throughout the entire church. We were one in faith and doctrine.

During those years you could travel to any foreign country, find the local Seventh-day Adventist church, walk in through the front door and say, “I am home. I have never seen these people before, but I know them. I know their beliefs and I know their lifestyle. On all of the important matters of life, their hearts beat as mine.” This was especially true of church workers. When two of them met, anywhere, there was an instant bonding and a fullness of fellowship. How precious were those days, now known only as they are held in sweet remembrance. We would have treasured them even more had we known what was ahead.

Fidelity to the Bible and to the Spirit of Prophecy was taken for granted. Infidelity was neither glossed over nor excused. Not long after my baptism in 1936 I enrolled as a freshman at Walla Walla College [Walla Walla, Washington]. By the time a few weeks of the school year had passed, it had become apparent that three of the Bible teachers, including the chairman of the Bible department, were undercutting the Spirit of Prophecy. Careful investigations were conducted, and by the end of the first quarter, all three of these teachers were gone from the campus. Two quickly found their places in Sunday keeping churches, where they belonged, and the third retired to his hog ranch. Yes, his hog ranch. But none of the three were undercutting the Spirit of Prophecy nearly as much as is being done in many of our college Bible classes today, while church administrators look on indifferently or benignly.

Our week of prayer speakers ministered to our needs in a careful and conscientious way, always teaching us the joys of victorious Christian living. If any of them had announced to us that it is impossible to stop sinning, we would have heard him no further. And the administration would have replaced him, even before the week was over.

So that is where I am coming from, and that is who I am. I listen in astonishment to earnest young Calvinists among us describing those years as the “age of legalism.” They can’t kid me. I was there.

I was taught our faith and doctrines by dedicated men who were one hundred percent Seventh-day Adventists. I spent fifteen years of my ministry in full-time evangelism. (The other years were divided between pastoring and teaching in college and seminary classrooms.) In my evangelistic work I was required to closely examine the false reasoning, the sophistry, and the casuistry in the writings of the “Evangelical” ministers who were desperately opposing our message, and show their tricks to the new converts. You can imagine the pain I feel when I see the same sort of material being set forth by some Seventh-day Adventist ministers now. When they proclaim that “We are Evangelicals!” my response is, “You really didn’t need to tell me. I knew that already. The methodology of your writings makes it abundantly clear.”

So my present work is preaching to and teaching the historic Seventh-day Adventists in camp meetings and seminars. I am in the pulpit virtually every Sabbath, either near my place of abode, or in some other state. I answer innumerable theological questions, by mail or by telephone. For want of a better place to go, ministry leaders often come to me for counsel. And in between these activities, I try to find time for writing. I feel guilty because I am not writing more, but I run out of time.

But in it all, I am happy. I know that I am defending God’s pure and holy truth, and I have no moments of anxious foreboding such as the Calvinists among us must certainly have. The shaking time is moving in on us. By God’s grace, I will survive it, and live again in the happy fellowship of a purified church.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4994
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lynn H. Wood

Neal cited:

quote:

Wood, Lynn H. "The Kahun Papyrus and the date of the Twelfth Dynasty", Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 99(Oct., 1945):5-9. — This does not deal directly with the chronology of Genesis 11, but it establishes Egyptian chronology on a secure basis, using the Sothic Cycle. Thus the Old Kingdom was said to have begun about 2800 B.C. This being true, the Flood could not possibly have been in 2348 B.C. as proposed by Ussher.


He wondered if this was the same person to whom Lynn Wood Hall was named for. In answer, I had begun a biographical timeline for Lynn H. Wood posted here.

Lynn H. Wood intrigues me. He wrote colorfully, thought deeply, and served the church as a practical educator, archaeologist and spiritual leader.

So far, I have studied his early life. He taught Mathematics and Science at the Foreign Missions Seminary in Washington D.C. then served at Union College then the Southern Training School in Tennessee. He was youth and education director for the Southern Union. As Union education leader, he encouraged seminars and conventions on Adventist rural schools such as Madison.

Then, I studied his later years. I associate Siegfried Horn with archaeology, but did not realize that Lynn H. Wood was the first Adventist professor to teach archaeology. Siegfried Horn took over when Wood retired. Horn and Wood co-authored The Chronology of Ezra 7 in 1953.

Wood lived in what some call The Golden Age of Adventism. He personified the Age, IMO. His work in Baltimore illustrates this. EGW's counsel to work for those in the big cities provided motivation for him to do exactly that. They implemented the counsel praying their way through the experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

bill sorensen (Billsorensen)
member
Username: Billsorensen

Post Number: 2397
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 7:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ralph Larson, like Smith and Butler, did not see the full implications of the gospel. What he defended for the most part was very defensible. Because he defended sanctification and the law. And he view the nature of Christ solely from this singular perspective.

Like most honest men who want to "defend the faith" they fail to see the paradoxical issues of law and grace and have a "system" of theology they feel is beyond qualification or challenge.

Larson followed in the foot steps of Andreasen and often flailed at windmills. In defending some aspect of truth, we may well be attacking some other aspect that is equally important. And because some people will abandon one position and take another and even loose faith altogether, it is assumed the cause is because they embraced some "new" error that destroyed their faith.

Luther's comment is relevant. "The Christian community is like a drunken peasant, you push him up on one side of his horse, and he falls off on the other."

And the devil is a master at deception by playing off one aspect of truth against the other. Dr. Ford once said "Error is most often in what a person denies and not in what he affirms." And this is especially true of Dr. Larson and most of Adventism today.

Had Dr. Ford affirmed the gospel and denied the IJ was for the purpose of determining who had merited heaven and earned salvation, he would have been correct. But no, he had to deny any aspect or application of the IJ and fell into heresy. He should have taken his own advice. It would have saved himself and many others from "heresy".

Dr. Larson was no better off. Just as Ford was wrong, period, so was Larson. EGW understood this dilemma in the 1888 scenerio between Smith and Jones. The outcome was no better then than it is now. The liberals undermine the law and the conservatives undermine the gospel. Both partly right, but in the end, totally wrong.

Will "the church" survive? Depends on what you call "the church." If you mean "the truth" will survive, yes. And if "the church" means all who embrace truth and advocate it, yes.

Does it mean the corporate legal entity called "The Seventh-day Adventist church"? Not necessarily. Maybe, possibly, hopefully, but not necessarily. There is no "unconditional election" of any legal corporate name or group of people.

Since the bible Sabbath is inherently a part of the name "Seventh-day Adventist", for this reason, the name may well define a true believer in the end. Even if they are not a part of the "legal" corporate church. This name will again eventually be hated by the world and all those who abandon the faith will also abandon the name. Why would you keep a name that is contrary to all that you believe? You wouldn't.

Dr. Ford, Tom Norris nor any other superficial "theologian" will destroy the true bible Adventism nor will they "reform" the church with their superficial understanding of truth.

Neither will the hyper-conservatives keep the gospel out. Both antinomians and legalists will eventually abandon bible Adventism and join the opposition. The true bible gospel will not destroy and undermine the law nor will the law negate the bible gospel.

Sorensen

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Don Sands (Don)
member
Username: Don

Post Number: 4997
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lynn H. Wood - Part 3

First, to give a sense of continuity, I'm including the timeline developed thus far:
1910-11 Taught Science, Mathematics and Building Construction at the Foreign Missions Seminary, Washington, D.C.

1912 Helped establish the church in Baltimore, Maryland.

1913 Union College in Nebraska.

1914 Principal and Mathematics teacher for the Southern Training School, Graysville, Tennessee; 150 students.

quote:

The Southeastern Union Field Tidings, June 17, 1914, page 8 (a DJVU file)

Prof. Lynn H. Wood arrived in Graysville last week, and has already found much to busy himself with. Work in the preparation of copy for the school Calendar has been his chief burden.


1915 February 18. A fire occurred in the girls' dorm; two injuries, no loss of life. He reported the incident in the Review and Herald.

1915 The September 23, 1915 Review and Herald states that he was Educational and Missionary Volunteer secretary of the Southern Union Conference.

1916 Educational Secretary, Southern Union Conference.

quote:

Notice!

There is constantly coming to us from the Southeastern Union the rumor that the Hazel Academy is planning to carry twelve grades of work this winter. We would like to take this opportunity of absolutely denying this rumor, and saying that there is no truth in it whatsoever. Hazel has planned all last year and this year to continue as a strong tenth grade school, but that is all. There is not the slightest rumor in this field that she is even contemplating doing anything else.

W. R. ELLIOTT, Chm. School Board.

LYNN H. WOOD, Educational Secretary Southern Union.

Southeastern Union Field Tidings, August 30, 1916


1916 The Graysville School Moves to Collegedale. Ministerial Short Course Offered

quote:

WORK BEGINS ON NEW SCHOOL SITE

Farm Purchased and Preparations for Opening School October 18th Under Way

...

Special Ministerial Short Course

Arrangements were made for a special course to be given in practical field evangelistic work, covering a period of about two months, and be- ginning about the first of March. This course will cover such subjects as Bible doctrines, sermonic construction, journalism, history, practical field methods, etc. This course is primarily intended for our conference workers now employed in actual field work, many of whom feel greatly the need of some special instruction in these lines. The conferences in the Southeastern and Southern Unions plan to arrange for all of their younger workers to attend this special course. It is expected that Evangelist Carlyle B. Haynes and Prof. Lynn H. Wood will connect with the faculty to assist in giving the instruction during this short course.

While this course is being especially prepared for our conference workers, yet all our regular students in the Bible department will be given the benefit of this course without additional charge. It will be so arranged as to weave it into the regular Ministerial and Bible Workers' course. This offers a special opportunity for those students who attend this year.

Southeastern Union Field Tidings, September 20, 1916


Comment

This Ministerial Short Course illustrates Lynn H. Wood's creative and practical mind at work.

The Southeastern Union office was located in Graysville, I think. When the school moved to Collegedale, I wonder what became of the administrative geography.

_______________________________________


Links to Part 1 and Part 2


Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration