| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2008 |
Irene Longfellow said: I need imput from you guys and I don't know where to put this thread so here goes. My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list( we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over.. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up. I was shocked. I have been a member of this little church for 27 years and have never, never seen that happen. I, along with a couple of other people, were furious. I have been in countless churches over a 65 year period and NEVER has that requirment been requested. Even the big LLU church with it's 4,000 members has never pushed such a rule. I felt it was insulting and hurtful and exempted a couple of wonderful elders from continuing office. I'm sure the pastor has an agenda but that's not the way to handle it in my opinion. Tell me what you think and what you suggest I can do about it. Or should I do nothing. I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct.number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should. But I guess I won't do that. Do you approve of his action. Am I overreacting? Any thoughts or suggestions? renie | ||
| J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) Moderator Username: Daneanderthal Post Number: 2999 Registered: 8-2004 |
re:"I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct.number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should." IMO, that's the one thing you should do!  FWIW, on the Review net site tonight, there was an article about "church hopping" Is there any other SDA church with-in driving distance? Other then having to drive over the pass to Bozeman? | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5619 Registered: 8-2004 |
That church's action is utterly reprehensible and despicable and should NEVER have occurred!!! The tithe payers should ONLY be known by the treasurer, and it should stay with her. Never, should anyone, including the pastor, have any information about tithe-payers. A friend was treasurer of a large church and was asked by a member for information on who were paying tithe, and she adamantly refused to give any such information. She eventually resigned as she was too pressured. I'm not sure what the church manual policy is, but I never attend or be a member of such a church. Most pastors have no interest in such information and any pastor who does, is worse than weird and should be reported the the conference, and I would be the one reporting. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2008 |
JR and Elaine....thanks so much for sharing your insights with me. JR. the only other church is in Big Timber which is 45 miles away and is pastored by the same pastor. That won't work. Elaine....What I think I will do, along with two other members, is to go to the church board and share my concerns with them. Hopefully, I can get them to vote on a resolution that will prohibit tithe payers names from ever being revealed and used as clout again.. If that doesn't work , I will take your suggestion, Elaine, and go to the conference president. I'm comforted in knowing that both of you feel as I do that what happened is disgusting and hurtful. Thanks for your impute. renie | ||
| J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) Moderator Username: Daneanderthal Post Number: 3002 Registered: 8-2004 |
Awe, "Big Timber." We pulled into the rest area, there one night back in 1991. I hadn't been to the Pac NW since I was a little kid. The fresh smell of the pine trees........awe......I could live up your way forever! | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5621 Registered: 8-2004 |
Renie, let us know how things turn out. If good folks like you don't speak up, what is to prevent such things happening there or elsewhere? Remember: When your questions cannot be properly addressed, keep going till you get to the top! | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2023 Registered: 8-2004 |
My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list( we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over.. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up. I just read through the manual chapters on the nominating committee as well as the Gospel finance and I don't see anything that would back up his bringing in tithe statements and saying that only those people are eligible. Here is a link to the manual, you can't download the one on the official Adventist site it has not worked for months. http://www.ciasda.org/?download=Seventh-day-Adventist-Church-Manual-17th-edition.pdf From the chapter on finance: Tithing—a Scriptural Obligation—Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience. “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Mal. 3:10). You could ask the Pastor for any scriptural reference that the storehouse is the Adventist church. If he can't do that and he can't inform him that God has multiple methods of working and that to assume that only tithe to the SDA church is acceptable is to deny the scriptural authority just as his assumption to bring in the tithe issue is also unscriptural, if he says it is scriptural ask him for scriptures. If he insists upon using EGW quotes ask him do we follow the Bible or the writing of Ellen White. If he says that Ellen White is a continuing source of truth, inform him that Ellen White is not above the Bible and that Ellen White is tested by the Bible, so on this issue he needs to demonstrate from the Bible that the Payment of title to the Adventist church is necessary to be eligible to serve in leadership positions in the Adventist church. The fact is you cannot do anything here unless you are willing to stand up against the Pastor's abuse. So get a few like minded members together and sit down with the pastor. If not things will only get worse. New Protestants.com | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 142 Registered: 7-2008 |
You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for the good advice and encouragement. Thanks Bob for your impute too. I will use what you have dug up to take to the board meeting. If I can't get anything done there, I will go to the conference president. I'll let you guys know how things go. The board usually meets the second Monday of the month. renie | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) new member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2008 |
This is my first post and I hope that you all are not too hard on me, but tithing is a subject that is close to my heart. For many years I returned a faithful "modified" tithe. What is a modified tithe? That is what Adventism and many other churches teach. In no way is it scriptural. First of all it is part of the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant. No where in the New Covenant is there a requirement to pay tithe. Tithe was never paid in shekels anyway. It was paid in animals and produce. If Israelites didn't raise crops or animals they simply didn't pay tithe, so all Israelites didn't pay it. Churches have taken the old system, modified it and are using it as a tool to extract money from the faithful. Ellen White's Angel had it wrong. Her visions somehow got crossed up in her brain and the flock has not bothered to seek the truth about the matter. Well, maybe some have because only 25-30% of Adventists are tithe payers. If you really want to know how to give to further the Gospel read chapters 8 and 9 of 2 Corinthians. Irene, take this to the church board and ask them to do a study on tithing. If they are honest they will stop asking the flock to pat it. That will cause the GC to rumble. My bobservation for today. Bob} Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2008 |
Irene said: My church nominating committee met two weeks ago. Our pastor got a list of all the tithe payers in our church from the church accountant and brought the list (we only have 92 members) to the nominating committee to look over. He said that only the members on the list were eligible to hold office and cited the church manual to back him up. The modern SDA church is a hierarchal organization. This means that those at the top have doctrinal authority and control of all others. This is how the RCC is organized, which is totally against the Gospel, but yet the SDA's have copied this great error. Although Rome claims their authority resides in the doctrine of apostolic succession, the SDA's base their authority on the Old Covenant doctrine of Tithe. Both positions are utterly worthless, absurd, and wrong. Apostolic Succession is just as much of a fraud as Tithe paying in the church. They are both great myth and error. The SDA's are very wrong to pretend that their Denominational headquarters is anything like the Jewish Temple or that tithe paying is a sacred duty for the church. There was no tithing in the apostolic church anymore than there was Sunday Worship. Moreover, the apostles never owned or controlled any of the local churches. The SDA's are being downright dishonest and incompetent to teach that the apostles support this outrageous myth, which they do not. But the SDA's care far more about money than truth. So that is the end of the matter for them. Money trumps truth for the SDA's. The fact of the matter is that there is no such doctrine as NT tithe. It does not exist as a valid doctrine for the church. It is a religious scam that is meant to control both the mind and the bank accounts of those gullible enough to fall for it. The SDA leaders should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this sinful and wicked fraud, and the people who have been fooled by such propaganda should wake up and stop allowing such abuse, Irene said: I was shocked. I have been a member of this little church for 27 years and have never, never seen that happen. Many are shocked when they figure out that the SDA church is really a hierarchical paradigm that acts more like Rome than anything Protestant. Few understand that the Denomination owns everything in their local church, all the property and fixtures, even down to the songbooks and pencils in the pews. Even though the people paid for their churches, it is all owned and controlled by a handful of men who claim to have spiritual authority over everyone. And if you disagree with any doctrine or policy, you can leave the premises, because the hierarchy owns and controls everything by design. This is how they control the church. Only those SDA's that acknowledge the spiritual authority and doctrines of their leaders, which is symbolized by the payment of tithe to them, are allowed to participate in any church office. All others are pushed aside, regardless of their spiritual gifts. Thus, tithe paying becomes a loyalty test for all in the SDA church. It is the method to control the church, including the pastors, and empower the hierarchy. Irene said: I, along with a couple of other people, were furious. I have been in countless churches over a 65 year period and NEVER has that requirement been requested. Even the big LLU church with it's 4,000 members has never pushed such a rule. The tithe has always been used as a method to control the modern SDA church. Unless one has agreed to support both the church and its doctrines, as evidenced by regular tithe paying, they are not allowed to work for the church, or to hold any office in the local church. Period. This rule has always been enforced. It's just that a wise pastor does it quietly, in order to keep people--like you-- from realizing that the SDA church is not being managed by Gospel principles. So you are shocked at something that has been going on for a long time. The Pastors have access to all the records and thus they know who is paying tithe, and who supports what doctrines. Thus they manipulate things accordingly in order to keep control. The SDA church is one of the most controlled and micro managed of all denominations, and tithe is one of their secrets to control the church. (Which is why so many have left over the years…) So don't think that this rule in the church manual does not mean what it says, or that it is not enforced. It is how the game is played in the SDA church, and how it has always been played in the 20th century. In fact, this is why AT Jones refused to remain an SDA. He was furious that the church developed such a hierarchal form of government, which he knew was wrong. He refused to support such a RC system. All SDA's should follow AT Jones in this regard. Irene said: I felt it was insulting and hurtful and exempted a couple of wonderful elders from continuing office. I'm sure the pastor has an agenda but that's not the way to handle it in my opinion. Wolves might seem nice from a distance, but they will bite and devour any lamb that gets in their way. No one should be surprised at such a natural reaction. All pastors are part of the hierarchy and controlled by the hierarchy and paid by the hierarchy from the tithe. So this false doctrine is the basis for every pastor's existence. Should they question or doubt it, they will be terminated. Besides, false doctrine hurts people and destroys the truth of the Gospel. The only way for any Pastor to deal with such false doctrine is to repudiate it. But you see, the Pastors are in on this scam. This is how they get paid. So they are even guiltier because they promote this fraud, even as they are forced to embrace it or they will be throne out the door. So speaking with your pastor is going to be a useless endeavor. You may as well ask the Pope to become a Lutheran! No wonder the LM has no exclusion for the SDA's. No wonder that Jesus calls them wretched, blind, and naked. They are far worse than anyone imagined. The only way to handle tithe in the SDA church is to protest and repudiate it. That is all that anyone can do with such false, anti-Gospel myths that are destroying the Advent Movement. No one should pay tithe to the SDA's or anyone else. It is false doctrine. Period. Irene asked: Tell me what you think and what you suggest I can do about it. Or should I do nothing. I would ask the Pastor to show me where the apostles teach that tithe is to be practiced by the church. And if he can't do this, and he can't, then why would anyone become an indentured servant to the SDA church? Why would anyone want to follow this false doctrine so that the corrupt wolves in Silver Spring can persecute those like Dr. Ford who teach the Gospel correctly? Why? I used to challenge people in my local church to find any Christian in the NT paying tithe, or collecting tithe, or spending tithe, etc. I would offer them $1,000 if they could find such a passage in the NT. They would always laugh and thank me for the money, because they were certain that they would win this simple Bible challenge. Of course the next week in church, they would look perplexed, and admit that this was harder than it sounded. As time went on, no one could ever find even one example of any Christian, much less an apostle, practicing or promoting tithe in the church. But yet all SDA's have been taught that the apostolic church practiced tithing --and that is why it must be followed today. But this assumption is false. The apostolic church repudiated tithe, which is the opposite of embracing it. It is a serious error to embrace false doctrine. And NT tithe paying is a very stupid error that hurts many people. It also empowers a religious hierarchy to play God and speak like a beast power. Which is what happened at Glacier View. Those that gathered there to review doctrine did so at the pleasure of the hierarchy. The congregation was only acting as a "consultant" to those that controlled the church. Thus the leaders made it clear that they were going to do what they wanted to do, and the voice of the people did not matter. This is worst thing about tithe; it creates a corrupt hierarchy to rule over and abuse the people. This is what has happened to the SDA's. Unless they repudiate tithe, they will never find or understand the Gospel. Irene said: I thought about asking the pastor for his bank acct. number so I could check and see if he's paying all the tithe he should. But I guess I won't do that. Don't think that the tithe paying of the pastors is not investigated by the conference. Their superiors make certain that they are setting a good example, even as they are strictly required to pay tithe and promote tithe or lose their jobs. Those that protest, like some have done, are quickly silenced and removed for fear that the people might catch on. Irene asked: Do you approve of his action. Am I overreacting? Any thoughts or suggestions? The SDA Community should demand a reformation in the church. Everyone should demand truthful doctrines or none at all. This means that the IJ must go, and so too tithe. And there is a long list of other false doctrines that must also be replaced with truth. In fact, the SDA's are so off base that they don't even know how to observe the Lord's Supper. So you are not overreacting. When it comes to false doctrine, it must all be repudiated in a very public manner. No one that embraces the Gospel correctly can pay tithe to anyone. Period. If all SDA's refused to support the hierarchy with their money, reformation would have to take place. But generations of propaganda is hard to dismiss. At this point, you could not pay me to pay tithe. It is a disgusting and dangerous doctrine that empowers wolves to control the church. J. R. Layman said: FWIW, on the Review net site tonight, there was an article about "church hopping" Is there any other SDA church with-in driving distance? Other then having to drive over the pass to Bozeman? All SDA churches are full of false doctrine. While some may be friendlier or have better potlucks, etc, they are all based on one false doctrine after another, tithe just being one of many. continued | ||
| Tom Norris (Tom_norris) Moderator Username: Tom_norris Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2008 |
Elaine Nelson said: That church's action is utterly reprehensible and despicable and should NEVER have occurred!!! Why do you think there are church records? Why do you think the SDA church is set up the way it is? The present system is set up to control the members, empower the leaders, and enrich the organization. Tithe is one of the fundamental doctrines that cannot be challenged in the SDA church. It proves that the SDA's are locked into an Old Covenant mind set. Elaine said: The tithe payers should ONLY be known by the treasurer, and it should stay with her. Never, should anyone, including the pastor, have any information about tithe-payers. The Pastor is in full charge of the local church, which is owned by the hierarchy--not the members. Thus all the records belong to those that own the church, and so too does the money, and the property. The members have no say in any of this. They are just pawns that pay to be abused and misled. Elaine said: A friend was treasurer of a large church and was asked by a member for information on who were paying tithe, and she adamantly refused to give any such information. She eventually resigned as she was too pressured. This is too funny. How can any treasure withhold information from the owner's rep, which is the pastor? Those that participate in the SDA church may not realize that they have no control or legal rights. This is a well-organized cult that has succeeded in disguising their cultic wickedness in the name of Jesus. But sooner or later, people discover that they have been misled and lied to on almost every point. Then they leave the church… Elaine said: I'm not sure what the church manual policy is, but I will never attend or be a member of such a church. This is the way that all SDA churches are managed. The church manual makes it clear that only tithe payers can hold office. All pastors know this rule, as well as how to control the members and bring in the tithe. They are all taught the importance of this scam. Thus the SDA's have degenerated into a worthless cult. They have no safe or honest churches. Elaine said: Most pastors have no interest in such information and any pastor who does, is worse than weird and should be reported the conference, and I would be the one reporting. While some pastors may not like such matters, all SDA pastors are trained about the importance and necessity of tithe paying. In fact, I doubt you will ever go to any church on Sabbath and not hear a long plea and prayer about tithe paying. This is a standard part of every SDA service. It is such a featured doctrine that there can be no doubt that all the pastors are in on this scam. This is how they are paid, and how they are promoted. Which means that the SDA pastors are mostly hired hands. They are working for money, not to save souls by the preaching of the Gospel. For further research, here are some links about tithe from the AT site: http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/7387.html?1134446681 http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/57.html?1012461317 http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2022.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/12815.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/7446.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2076.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/205.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/1680.html http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/2081.html Ron Corson said: I just read through the manual chapters on the nominating committee as well as the Gospel finance and I don't see anything that would back up his bringing in tithe statements and saying that only those people are eligible. Ron, the SDA's didn't get this far by not understanding how propaganda works. You missed what they were saying on this point because it was buried in another place on purpose. But it is there nonetheless. The SDA's are expert at trying to dishonestly hide the real meaning and intent of their words and doctrines. But no one should be fooled by their endless double-talk and trickery. The SDA's are dead wrong to teach that tithing is church doctrine, and even more wrong to set up two different classes in the church--one that can hold office and one that cannot. Listen to their folly: In recognition of the Bible plan and the solemn privilege and responsibility that rest upon church members as children of God and members of His body, the church, all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury. Tithing—a Scriptural Obligation—Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience. http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmanha.htm Regardless of what the SDA's teach, in the NT, there is no tithe obligation for any Christian. Why? Because there is no such doctrine in the New Covenant any more than there are priests or ritual circumcision. Tithing is an Old Covenant doctrine that was banished by the Apostles, along with a separate class of priests. So there is no such thing as any Christian paying a "faithful tithe." NT Tithe paying is a false and dishonest doctrine that sets up a hierarchy to control minds and establish a fraudulent religious Empire. But the SDA's don't care what the NT teaches; any that refuse to embrace their scam "should not be elected to any church office." Here is the point you were trying to find. It was purposely hidden, but it is there nonetheless: To Foster Tithing-As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 136-138, 191.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office. Tithing can be fostered by public presentation of the scriptural obligations privilege and responsibility of stewardship and by personal labor with the members. Such labor should be carried on in a tactful and helpful manner. The elder should regard all financial matters pertaining to church members as confidential and should not place such information in the hands of unauthorized persons. http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmann.htm So here is the place where the SDA's come out and say: "no tithe, no office." They tried to bury it, but it is there for all to see anyway, because this is how the church controls people. "Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter (of tithe) should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office." Moreover, the SDA Baptismal vows also contain a pledge to "support the church through tithe." Those that refuse are not considered "faithful or loyal members." They cannot hold church office. 9. Do you believe in church organization? Is it your purpose to worship God and to support the church by through your tithes and offerings and by your personal effort and influence? http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmano.htm Thus, the nominating committee will blacklist those that are not loyal tithe payers: Nominating Committee to Consult Prospective Officers-Having nominated for the various offices persons who are faithful, loyal members of the local church, the appropriate members of the nominating committee should inform them of their nomination to office and secure their consent to serve. http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmanj.htm The facts are clear. Tithe is a scared doctrine for SDA's. If you don't play along, you will be blacklisted from church office and treated like a second-class citizen. Moreover, this topic is forbidden in the SDA church. It cannot be debated or discussed. No pastor will deal honestly with this false doctrine that gives the hierarchy their false authority, which includes the pastor because he is part of the hierarchy and works exclusively for them. In fact, the pastor is part of the hierarchy. He is paid from the tithe, even as he answers--not to the people--but to his superiors. The pastors are placed in the local churches by the hierarchy to control the churches--as if they were profit centers. Thus no one should think that an SDA pastor is on his or her side. Not at all. They are part of the hierarchy. And their job is to control the church in the manner that the hierarchy dictates to them. Period. Robert L. Shields said: This is my first post and I hope that you all are not too hard on me, but tithing is a subject that is close to my heart. Welcome. You can speak freely here. Bob said: For many years I returned a faithful "modified" tithe. What is a modified tithe? That is what Adventism and many other churches teach. In no way is it scriptural. Correct. There is no such doctrine as tithing in the church. This is not an opinion, but a fact of church history and theology. Bob said: First of all it is part of the Old Covenant. Christians are under the New Covenant. Nowhere in the New Covenant is there a requirement to pay tithe. Correct. Not only that, Paul gives a command about giving that repudiates tithe, and forever prohibits anyone from embracing this OC doctrine. 2Cor. 9:5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness. 2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. Paul's statement that says " Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart," is the OPPOSITE of tithe. Thus giving in the church had no 10% regulation. Each person could decide what to give, not the Old Covenant law, with its many rules and Temple regulations. Bob said: Tithe was never paid in shekels anyway. It was paid in animals and produce. If Israelites didn't raise crops or animals they simply didn't pay tithe, so all Israelites didn't pay it. Correct. The way the Gentiles try to mimic tithe is all wrong. They are not close to getting it correct according to the Old Covenant rules. There are no such rules about tithe in the NT, because there is no such doctrine in the church. The church practiced SHARING, not tithing. Acts 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 1Cor. 9:10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 1Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Heb. 13:16 And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. Gal. 6:6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Eph. 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. 1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 2Tim. 2:6 The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. Sharing replaced tithing in the church as a method of Gospel finance. The SDA's don't understand the Gospel or the Two Covenants correctly, which is why they don't realize that tithing is banished from the church because it is against the Gospel. Bob said: Churches have taken the old system, modified it and are using it as a tool to extract money from the faithful. Correct. Such theology is wicked and evil. Bob said: Ellen White's Angel had it wrong. Her visions somehow got crossed up in her brain and the flock has not bothered to seek the truth about the matter. Well, maybe some have because only 25-30% of Adventists are tithe payers. Ellen White cannot be used as an excuse for tithe. She did not invent it, nor was it even developed by SDA's until long after the 3rd Angels Message was developed. Neither is tithing a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages. If Ellen White were here today, she would encourage everyone to study the Bible in order to find out what is truth. This was ALWAYS her position, and thus she would encourage the study of this topic as well as all others. Bob said: Irene, take this to the church board and ask them to do a study on tithing. If they are honest they will stop asking the flock to pat it. That will cause the GC to rumble. What SDA church board is honest? Not one. The SDA's are so full of false doctrine and myth that it is hard to find any point about which they are correct. So you can forget about anyone in the SDA church speaking up about the travesty of tithe. It is a forbidden topic. When Dr. Ford told the truth about the IJ, he was slandered and exiled. What do you think would happen if anyone today stood up and told the truth about NT tithe? There would not even be a hearing to look at the matter. Such a reformer would be excommunicated immediately. The SDA's are not Protestant. They are just another dishonest cult that has lost their way. Pity. They had such a noble and necessary mission. No one should trust the SDA hierarchy or think that they are even slightly honest. They are not. They are a cruel and wicked organization that falsely claims to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Unless they confess and repent, they are doomed to hell. Tom Norris for Adventist Reform | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 143 Registered: 7-2008 |
Darn it Ron...I found the rule on tithing and church office. It's in the 1986 Church Manual anyway. Under the chapter on tithe... page 135 "Conference Workers and Church Officers to set example in returning tithe....The last sentence in the paragraph says...No one shall be continued as either a church officer or conference worker who does not conform to this standard (returning a tithe)of leadership." It's a bummer but there it is. Thanks for helping me access the site. renie | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hi Bob Shields....a big welcome to our place. I hope you will continue to be a part of our conversations here. I'm printing off your comments and will use them if the committee gets bulky. I'm hoping a simple appeal will change their minds and they will vote to recommend that our bookkeeper keep all members' giving confidential. I'm going to request the our bookkeeper refuse to reveal ANY information on the members. Your understanding of the tithe situation is helpful. I've learned a lot from all of you. Keep your 'bobservations' coming renie | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2008 |
Tom, thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Considering that you are probably right on your observations of the church organization, what in the world can an unimportant person like myself do? Go up the ladder? It looks like even you with your influence can't get a hearing from the church. Have you ever been given a audience with anyone of importance? A lot of members just throw up their hands and start another church which sometimes works but a lot of the times doesn't. Are we stuck? Is there no hope? Most of us, most of the time, give up. We don't want to make waves. We just want it all to work it's self out. We've afraid we will be working against the Lord and hindering His work. We've just afraid we will cause trouble. renie | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2008 |
Tom, I found your post to be right on with the way I understand scripture. You certainly have a handle on Adventism. I have to take issue with one of your statements though, It is: Ellen White cannot be used as an excuse for tithe. She did not invent it, nor was it even developed by SDA's until long after the 3rd Angels Message was developed. Neither is tithing a fundamental pillar in the Three Angels Messages. While I haven't the foggiest when the time frame of tithing system was adopted by the church I do know that Ellen White put her stamp of approval on it through convenient visions. Today the church looks to her writings for their authority to continue this false doctrine. Where else can they look? Christian tithing certainly isn't Biblical. If this were the only place Mrs. White blundered it would be enough to convict her of being something other that what the church has bestowed on her. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thank you Renie for your welcome. It has taken me a long time to get up the courage to write on this forum. One of my favorite friends is Hubert Sturgis. He delivered one of our babies back in Ohio many years ago. I have the deepest respect for him and his family. They sacrificed much for the good of our community and were beacons of what the Holy Spirit will do if we allow Him to work in our hearts. I want him to know that I remain a dedicated Christian and understand and believe in the simple plan of salvation. I did leave the Adventist church because of doctrinal issues, but I still love with the people I fellowshipped with for over 40 years. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, As soon as I saw your name, I wondered, is this the "Bob Shields" that I knew. I am glad that you identified yourself. Your kind words about me are totally undeserving (I know myself better!). Welcome to this forum. There is a wide range of opinion here, so choose wisely. About the tithe: Because we have faulty human beings in the ministry and in leadership does not mean that God is not in this church, and that paying tithe is not needed. Tom and others will tell you at great length about the faults in leadership. My only question is: would they do better? would they even agree? Well, that is enough for now. ----------------------- Hubert F. Sturges . | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, Is paying the tithe a New Testament doctrine? First of all, we cannot separate the New Testament from the Old Testament. There are a number of other verses in the Old Testament advocating the tithe to support the Levites. The best known of the Old Testament passages is Malachi 3:8-10. This is the promise of blessing to those who pay tithe. Many people, even non-Christians, in reading this passage will pay tithe because they want the blessing. How about the New Testament? This is what we have: Matthew 23:23 . . for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, ... these ought ye to have done, 1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Timothy 5:18 . . For the scripture saith, ... The labourer is worthy of his reward. See also: 1 Cor. 9:4,12, 18; Gal. 6:6. These passages indicate that God expects His people to support the church. The details of paying a tenth of one’s income are from the Old Testament. To say that this is just for Israel or just for the old covenant raises some problems: 1. The Christian church of today has become the Israel of the Old Testament (Romans 11) with all the promises and responsibilities. 2. The Old Covenant was a short term affair lasting about six weeks and never supplanted the everlasting covenant. 3. There are some details in church administration for which God gave the church authority – which even heaven recognizes. Here are some quotes from the Church Manual, 16th edition (the newest). From the above I would gather that paying the tithe is a responsibility of the member and the recommendation of the church. I believe it has good New Testament support as outlined above. Also, as we pay tithe, God will bless us and more than make up all that we give to Him. ------------------- Hubert F. Sturges (please pardon, this may be the longest single post I have made!) . | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert wrote: How about the New Testament? This is what we have: Matthew 23:23 . . for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, ... these ought ye to have done, 1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. 1 Timothy 5:18 . . For the scripture saith, ... The labourer is worthy of his reward. See also: 1 Cor. 9:4,12, 18; Gal. 6:6. Yes Hubert, Matt. 23:23 makes my point. First remember Jesus was born under the law. He was talking to those under the law. The Pharisees were bringing their tithe, not of money, but from the land. They grew their tithe. Never are we told to pay tithe in shekels. From this we glean that only those who grew crops or animals ever paid this tax. Now you contend that there is no break between the Old and New. that will make a great debating discussion at another point. If perhaps you are correct then those who believe in supporting the Levites with tithe should pay it as God instructed, not with money. Another point is that not all Israelites were farmers. Those who were not didn't pay the tithe because they had no crops nor any animals. Your idea is diametrically opposed to what God ask the Israelites to do. Your church asks everyone to pay the tax. Yes, I say it is a tax because it surely isn't/wasn't given freely. It was part of the same law that SDAs claim ended at Calvary. Do you see my point Hubert? The New Covenant in Jesus gives us a much better plan for supporting the work of saving souls. It is giving from the heart. I know that you practice that, so I am talking to the choir. Far be it from me to try to convince those that give 10% of their money to the cause of God that they should not be doing that. What I am concerned about is telling the flock that they must give it to be in Grace with God and the church. This is definitely a false doctrine. 1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. We must differ as to what the Gospel contained Hubert. My understanding is that we are under the Gospel of Jesus and the Israelites were under the gospel of Moses. We can't serve both. I will choose Jesus. He fulfilled the law of Moses with the over 300 laws and they were nailed to His Cross. Listen to James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. This love entails much more than is covered in the last 6 commandments of the old law. In fact, the last 6 say nothing about love, they were requirements just like the SDA modified tithing system. As for the other scripture you quoted, I find nothing there that would ever lead me to tithe. Lets look at this tithing system in an other way. I was going to compare you with me, but I might be barking up the wrong tree to do so. Anyway, lets say we have two tithe paying people and one makes $100,000 and the other makes 10,000. This is not an unreasonable scenario. One has $90,000 left after the tax and the other $9,000. $90,000 would buy almost anything within reason, $9,000 would hardly put food on the table. The government would be issuing food stamps. That is not a fair system Hubert and it has caused many to leave church in discouragement. I know because I have been there and I surely don't plan to go back to such a regime. In Christ, Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2008 |
I don't think anyone would disagree that the church does need financial support to run, to pay the bills. And the members are the only source for that. My beef is........the way our pastor handled the situation at the nominating committee meeting that night. I would like to go back to that for a minute. For him to bring a list of only the tithing members to the meeting for the committee to consider was,in my opinion, insulting and humiliating. Our church is small enough that the committee could easily look down the list and see whose name wasn't on the list. One of the elders who isn't paying a tithe struggles to make ends meet. But she is on the platform almost every sabbath, she was preaching once a month at our church and at one of the two other churches our pastor has to pastor. She helped organize a prison ministry, teaches a class, leads the music, assigns the duties for the sabbath service on a rotating basis. She is actually more involved in our church than the pastor is. He gets a salary and she doesn't. With her leadership, we gave food and toys to three families in the community last Christmas. The point being, service and talent to the church should count for something. I don't know what we will do without her now that she does'nt qualify to hold office. Actually, our pastor deserves what he's going to get this next year. He's going to have to do more of the work himself. renie | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5625 Registered: 8-2004 |
Renie, my sympathies for the situation you find youself in. However, your integrity is the only thing of value you have, and will take to Heaven with you. So stick by your principles, which you already know what is right: no one has a right to know who pays tithe--it is between the individual and God. As for Christians and tithe, both Tom and Robert are right, and I have studied and know that there is not a single command in the NT for Christians to pay tithe. The verses in Corinthians outline what is expected of us, and it is NOT a tithe--which is a command given to the Jews. There were hundreds of commands given to the Jews, and how how SDAs decided which ones should now be observed and which ones are no longer to be observed? For myself, I do not live in the Jewish system which is an entirely different system and it became obsolete after Christ, as all the NT clearly explains. The more one studies the requirement for Christians as given by Paul (Jesus never gave any to Christians, only to good Jews) it can be seen that Adventists have combined the Old and New and "selected" those which they felt should be valid today. Don't ask on what basis they made those "picking and choosing" as you will find none; at least I've never seen a criteria that was used to classify those which are still to be observed today and those which are no longer valid. I could say much more, but if anyone here wants to offer information on the questions and statements I've made, please do so. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 150 Registered: 7-2008 |
Elaine...I AM going to stick by what I believe is right and just. I'm going to fight this monster. (I'm not referring to the pastor, only the problem). I may get the right FOOT of fellowship.  renie | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5626 Registered: 8-2004 |
Renie, my sympathies for the situation you find youself in. However, your integrity is the only thing of value you have, and will take to Heaven with you. So stick by your principles, which you already know what is right: no one has a right to know who pays tithe--it is between the individual and God. As for Christians and tithe, both Tom and Robert are right, and I have studied and know that there is not a single command in the NT for Christians to pay tithe. The verses in Corinthians outline what is expected of us, and it is NOT a tithe--which is a command given to the Jews. There were hundreds of commands given to the Jews, and how how SDAs decided which ones should now be observed and which ones are no longer to be observed? For myself, I do not live in the Jewish system which is an entirely different system and it became obsolete after Christ, as all the NT clearly explains. The more one studies the requirement for Christians as given by Paul (Jesus never gave any to Christians, only to good Jews) it can be seen that Adventists have combined the Old and New and "selected" those which they felt should be valid today. Don't ask on what basis they made those "picking and choosing" as you will find none; at least I've never seen a criteria that was used to classify those which are still to be observed today and those which are no longer valid. I could say much more, but if anyone here wants to offer information on the questions and statements I've made, please do so. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2008 |
Irene, Several years ago I received a call from Texas. A man, "SDA", was anxious to help ex-missionaries. He offered me a share in drilling an oil well. A share would cost $7,500 initially, and if the drilling was successful, another $7,500 to complete the well. Returns could be anywhere from $1,000 to $9,000 per month. With bills from building a house, and a son in Loma Linda - you bet I was tempted. I thought I would see what EGW had to say. She was very kind. She did not say it was wrong, only that such an investment would fail and I would lose my money! Well, what did she know about oil wells? Yet if my religion meant anything to me, maybe I should take her advice. So I did, and turned down the offer. As it turned out the initial drilling was successful. Which meant that if I had invested I would need to come up with a second $7,500 to complete the well. I did not invest. When they tried to complete the well, salt water flooded the well and the project failed. Bottom line: Ellen White saved me $15,000. --------------------------- About the tithe: I realize that you are not arguing against the tithe -- only against publicizing the names of tithe payers. I get from the church manual that it is appropriate for the pastor to know who the tithe payers are. For a list of tithe payers to be brought before a committee does not seem wise. By exclusion it would be easy to know those who did not pay tithe. How about the poor and those who are just scraping by? If Malachi 3:8-10 means anything, God has promised that he will bless the remaining 90% and give blessings to make it more valuable than an untithed 100%. Thus even the very poor need to pay tithe because they need that blessing. ----------------------- Here is how I think it works. Just this week my car (a 1997 Dodge Caravan) boiled over. I immediately parked and called a tow truck. There was water under the front end of the car. I looked and saw only new hoses and no evidence of a leak. The only think I could think of was a cracked block -- and with an 11 year old car, than means the scrap yard. The garage looked it over and found a "cracked radiator." Instead of a $5,000 bill for a new engine, the bill was $375 for a new radiator. (I guess radiators nowadays are plastic, and failure is not uncommon). A coincidence, of course. OR did God save me $4,625 because I am a tithe payer? Dunno. Hubb | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, You have some good arguments. God leaves us free to make our own decisions in a number of areas. ------------------------ I see that you live in Maynardsville, TN. I have no idea where that is. I still have some nostalgia for Dayton. The Far Hills SDA Church was the most fun church I have ever been in. I retired from medicine five years ago. Then moved from Woodland, CA to Grand Junction, Colorado just two months ago. We are still working to get settled in our apartment. If you are interested in my thoughts on the old covenant, you might look at www.everlastingcovenant.com If you are ever in Grand Junction, please stop by for a visit (Phone: 970-589-7282) Hubert. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5629 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hubb, as a physician you are too familiar with anecdotal tales to consider them good medical advice. Because your decisions were influenced by your own philosophy, you should recognize that was the reason you chose a position, not that one was right or the other wrong based on some religious belief. The odds are always going to be one way or the other, not infinite possibilities. It is impossible to prove that your belief determines the outcome of any choices you make if they are subject to forces completely out of your control. Those are not double blind studies, are they? | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2008 |
An anecdote is not without value. Scientifically one must recognize that anecdote can point to truth. At the same time they cannot "prove" truth. That is where the double blind study comes in. An anecdote is a witness. The stories that I gave are incontrovertible facts, not philosophy or beliefs. The conclusions and applications I take from these events are definitely colored by what I read in the Bible. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Hubert, actually we live in Sharps Chapel, TN which is even harder to find on a map. Sharps Chapel is 40 miles North of Knoxville. In 1994 we purchased 5 acres on Norris Lake, I retired in 1995 and in 1996 we broke ground for our retirement home. The contractor we were going to use decided he didn't want anything to do with building a Styrofoam home and I ended up building it myself. It took me 3 years and God lead in the project and we have a beautiful home nestled in the woods on the lake, which fulfilled a long time dream. I believe God lead me all the way because I had never built or done that type of carpentry in my life. We have enjoyed having many of our Ohio friends come down and the best part is that we are in between our kids. Two live in GA, one in Chattanooga and one in Dayton. It is interesting to find out the you are back in Colorado. What a beautiful place to live. We vacationed there for the last two years. Both years we lugged a toy hauler with two ATVs and camped in the beautiful mountains. Both years we spent time at our favorite Bogan Flats camp ground and rode up to Crystal and through Lead King Basin. Last year we went over to Utah and rode great trails there. I will gladly read your post on the old and new covenants. My studies have taken a very independent route. My only help is the Holy Spirit and my Strong's concordance. This on going study has indeed taken me on a different route than when I used Ellen White as the interpreter. In Christ, Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 151 Registered: 7-2008 |
Hub, from my own life experiece I've learned to pay tithe for the good it will do for others, not for my own reward. Why? My husband and I have paid tithe all of the 64 years we've been together and we've experienced many, many tough situations where we have been badly hurt finiancally and emotionally even though we have paid a tithe plus other giving to the church I have to admit that over the years I have seen some people blessed over and over and others knocked down over and over. Maybe you're one of the blessed ones, Hubert. renie | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 49 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, I am a firm believer that God gave messages for the church through Ellen White. Further, I believe that Ellen White was given to the church to prepare the 144,000, a special group -- NOT the only ones saved. Having said that, I recognize that EGW has been misused. There are some people who will preach a sermon or write an article with only a string of EGW quotes. I believe that this is a misuse of EGW and is evidence of laziness on the part of the speaker or writer. In my covenant project, I have used the Bible almost entirely. There is an occasional EGW quotation, not for proof, but for the language she uses to make a point. You mentioned Strong's Concordance. I use a computer program called "WordSearch." I can quickly find verses with this by reference or by a phrase in the verse. There is also a cross-reference feature that helps a lot to find verses on the same topic. Of course, there is Strongs; and I have about twelve Bible translations. ---------------------------- Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too. Colorado is not new to us. We have lived in Colorado for ten years prior to this move. Six of those years in Colorado Springs. It sounds like you have a beautiful place there in Tennessee. ----------------------------- Hubert . | ||
| J. R. Layman (Daneanderthal) Moderator Username: Daneanderthal Post Number: 3004 Registered: 8-2004 |
There is NOTHING, NOTHING which gets me hotter under the collar, the monthly "newsletter" from the Texico Conference to my son (who's name is still on the church books. (nice expensive slick 4 color process from the conference treasure) They always send a tithe envelope: Now besides the FACT, as Tom Norris has repeatedly pointed out over the years, that there is NO mention of a "tithe" in the NT. Now they want a 20% Tithe. Someone correct me, if I'm wrong. But the 10% in the OT went to the tribe of Levi. This supported them, and they took care of the all religious activities, the Temple, the priest, the religion teachers, etc? Now they want an extra 5% for "Local Church Budget!" IN OT TIMES, the Levites cleaned the temple, printed the SS programs, held "evangelistic programs," took care of "community Services." WHY DOESN'T THE SDA CHURCH USE THE TITHE, AS THEY DID IN OT TIMES? Then they want 3% for "Texico Conference Ministries." Church schools building (isn't that a temple, and shouldn't the 10% take care of it?) "Youth Ministries" Ah, the Conference Youth director, a minister can't be paid out of the 10%.......? Sheeeeesh Another 2% for "World Ministries." WHAT A FAKE OUT...... There isn't any way in the world I'd ever be a Seventh-day Adventist again......since the brethren are SO DISHONEST......keep the 10% for their own sticky pockets......and claim that their not to use in on cleaning up the church...or even hiring a secretary for the pastor of a large church! BS, BS, BS, AND more BS! The SDA church has POLUTED the used of the Tithe, for the Ordains own SELFISH purposes.....and then lays a guilt trip on the poor FLEECED SHEEP. To give them more, more, more!  I wonder if the Chief Rabbi, of the Levi't tribe, in King David’s day, was able to swing himself a more the $500,000 exclusive "executive" home......Just as Jon Paulson was able to arrange......After Folkenberg sold his home for excess of $460,000 (Ol Bob, sure liked to live the high on the HOG life....with his $24,000 Harley Motorcycle! and the Helicopter he insisted be rented for him, where-ever he happened to be traveling, even in Papua New Guinea (they had to bring one over from Australia, just for him!) I recall one member here telling me, that even in Dayton Ohio.....Folkenburg couldn't be bothered with simply having a Lemo pick him up from the airport, but insisted that Kettering Memorial Hospital rent a Helicopter for him. Too bad, that the Good Lord, doesn't practice the art of instant punishment anymore.....like he did with Eli's son's! We might have Ministers who actually took their role seriously! Instead of for self enrichment! I remember seeing pictures of the last GC in St. Louis. NAD Pres' Don Snieder had to have Segway rented for him.....Me thinks, that if he walked some of that FAT off, he might have prevented some of his brain lesions, and would be in better health. | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2024 Registered: 8-2004 |
Tom wrote: Here is the point you were trying to find. It was purposely hidden, but it is there nonetheless: To Foster Tithing-As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 136-138, 191.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office. Tithing can be fostered by public presentation of the scriptural obligations privilege and responsibility of stewardship and by personal labor with the members. Such labor should be carried on in a tactful and helpful manner. The elder should regard all financial matters pertaining to church members as confidential and should not place such information in the hands of unauthorized persons. http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmann.htm So here is the place where the SDA's come out and say: "no tithe, no office." They tried to bury it, but it is there for all to see anyway, because this is how the church controls people. Renie also posted that part but you are not sunk yet. They must define tithe as only 10% that goes to the SDA church. Is that the biblical definition of tithe? The problem is not support of the church or charitable giving those I agree are examples the church leadership should give. The problem is that they take upon themselves the role of creating a new tithe and themselves as the sole repository of tithe. So that is where you hit them. On what authority do they make the claim as being the storehouse of God. New Protestants.com | ||
| Bob Sands (Bob_2) member Username: Bob_2 Post Number: 9748 Registered: 1-2005 |
J.R., I still hold out hope, especially with the name of your forum "Adventist for Tomorrow". Hey, at the top of the page it is "Adventist of Tomorrow", which is it?? I think things will change but it will take a few more funerals, me thinks. God is, therefore I think! | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert wrote: Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too. Bogan Flats is about 10 miles beyond Red Stone at the foot of McClure Pass. It is on the same road that goes into Marble and on to Crystal. Our kids did Wilderness Challenge survival out of Crystal years ago. That is what led us to the area. Most of the Crystal area is owned by an Adventist family. I think they made it into a corporation. I remember years ago we met you, Barbara and your children at a camping area South of Rocky Mountain Park. It must have been around 1964. Time flies when having fun. I began giving up on Ellen White about 15 years ago. It started differently than for most formers. In Sabbath School she was over quoted and every debated point was solved by reading from something she wrote. My thought was always "why don't we prove our points from scripture?" During Friday night Bible study the same would happen. My Bible scripture was never as good as what was quoted from Ellen. The more they pushed her the more I resisted. Then I began a quest to prove her wrong. Boy, did I find what I was looking for. I could write a book, but since many have already been written I am sure mine wouldn't rate with those who have diligently made her a special study. The church has hidden so much Hubert. From the church we only get one side of her. There is no way she could qualify to be a prophet or "much more than" as she said of herself. I have read the apologists and there arguments are weak at best. I have grown much since leaving her behind. I believe she has caused multi more problems for the church and individuals than she has ever helped. When Adventists really take her seriously, even though she is dead she controls their minds and the results are sad. I know because I have friends that have come under her control. Not only are they robots, but legalism abounds. The false tithing system that SDAs teach is just the tip of the iceberg that got approval from her pen. Dig into her writings Hubert and you will be surprised what you will find. In Christ, Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2008 |
I hear what you are saying, Bob. My parents had a number of EGW books. But I don't recall that they over-quoted her. EGW was frequently used at PUC when I was there. At the time there was no issue about this. Did Ellen make mistakes? I suspect that she did. But I wonder how Isaiah would fare if he were a modern prophet? He may have made mistakes too! In doing the Covenant Project, I have found some material from EGW, but not near as much as I find in the Bible. What Ellen says is true, I think, but she does not answer the hard questions. This has opened my eyes to our need to make a deep study of the Bible for our doctrines. When I was at PUC I was probably as much a nominal Adventist as most. We had a teacher there, Mary C. McReynolds. She was a somewhat intimidating, dour sort of battleship that we were careful not to cross. Then I needed a short course to fill out my program. She taught a 2 hour course on the Spirit of Prophecy. So I thought, why not? It was a wonderful course. It changed my thinking in a number of areas. And -- I became a friend of Mary C. McReynolds! One of their dormitories there is now named McReynolds Hall. Since you have those acres on a lake, do you landscape it, or do you let it go natural? We lived in Tucson, AZ for three years while I took a residency in medicine. Most of the people there let their yards go natural. We learned to never move a rock. If you did, the desert broom would take over that spot. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2008 |
I will send you some pictures Hubert. We had to clear many trees around our home because of their danger of falling on the house. Then to get a view of the lake we took down some more, but we do allow much of the land to grow wild. We have a garden over the leach field :-), which is one of the few places we get enough sun light for plants to grow. Back to Ellen White and then I will leave the subject to rest. I have discovered that the plan of salvation is so simple, but when I was an Adventist it was so hard. I tried to measure myself by what Mrs. White wrote. It was impossible to ever come close to what she expected from her flock. Messages like: never say you are saved, meant to me that I couldn't ever know that Jesus blood covered me. It was His promise, but somehow trough her glasses I couldn't claim that promise. Her claim that only 1 in 20 SDAs are ready for eternity with Jesus. Using her writings as our measuring stick not one in 50,000 are ready. She could be among the rest of us. Did she completely ever overcome come sin? I am not the judge, but the Apostle Paul gives us much insight on the subject. The only way we will ever look clean to the Father is through the Son. Sure you will be able to find where she says this, but in your search how many places will you pass up the other statements. You mentioned the Far Hills Church. We were baptized there and there we found many great folks that we looked up to and yes, we had many wonderful moments. That church is no more by the way. Some moved to Centerville to start a new congregation and some stayed to finally end up in North Dayton with a new building called the Stillwater Church. Getting back to the subject, we had our early roots in the Methodist Church. Methodists are very non judgmental and non legalistic. Soon after becoming Adventist I became the most disgusting legalist you could ever imagine. I look back and shudder. I can blame no one but myself. I was mimicking my peers and taking the cue. Again, looking back I can analyze this as being caused by none other than the writings of Mrs. White. Legalism could be compared to mold. Once let loose it is almost impossible to eradicate. I am not saying she is the mold, but it sure is her manna (what we were fed) that attracts the mold. In closing, I bluntly do not believe the SDA Church is the remnant. Like many other denominations it is mired in such steep tradition that it completely overshadows some of the simple truths found in Scripture. In Christ, Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, I have thought about these issues and here are what I come up with: The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we see ourselves. In other words, the gap widens. Only the cross of Christ bridges that gap. What then is the perfection that is demanded of the Christian? I believe it is perfect trust, faith in Jesus Christ. How this works out in the life can be seen in Hebrews 12:2. Then study 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. Legalism? Yes. All sinful human beings are legalistic. It is the natural human condition. I have to admit myself that I am a legalist, saved from my legalism by grace! But EGW did not cause the problem of legalism. I explained SDA beliefs to a class of 15 young people in the Presbyterian church in Colorado Springs. Just for fun, I asked them "How are we saved?" We went down the line, one by one, and it wasn't until the 10th or 12th person that said we are saved by grace through the blood of Christ. Here is another thought, you will have to think about: The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489). I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!) ----------------------- I suspect it was hard to cut down those nice tall hardwoods at your place. But if you want a garden you have to clear space -- not just for sun but to clear the ground of all the roots of trees. That means that all treas within 50 feet of the garden have to be cut down! You can get a trencher and cut the roots, but in time they will come back. Hubb | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2008 |
Well, I am going to try this again. The first one got lost in cyber space. The closer we come to Christ the more sinful we see ourselves. In other words, the gap widens. Only the cross of Christ bridges that gap. What then is the perfection that is demanded of the Christian? I believe it is perfect trust, faith in Jesus Christ. How this works out in the life can be seen in Hebrews 12:2. Then study 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. Heb 12:2 is a beautiful truth. The second part certainly tells us where He went from here and He sure didn't wait till 1800 years later. Legalism? Yes. All sinful human beings are legalistic. It is the natural human condition. I have to admit myself that I am a legalist, saved from my legalism by grace! The difference is that I now recognize my legalism Hubert. Also, since I have allowed the Holy Spirit to be my guide, I haven't had the problem I once had. But EGW did not cause the problem of legalism. Wow!I sure wouldn't want to defend that position in a court of law. :-) I explained SDA beliefs to a class of 15 young people in the Presbyterian church in Colorado Springs. Just for fun, I asked them "How are we saved?" We went down the line, one by one, and it wasn't until the 10th or 12th person that said we are saved by grace through the blood of Christ. Yes, many who profess Christianity really do not understand the simple plan of salvation or do not hold the promise. We now attend a Methodist Church for Christian fellowship. The Sunday School teacher made the statement "I sure hope I am saved". What have they been reading? Where is their trust. SDAs are no different. Here is another thought, you will have to think about: The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489). }Verse 9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. It would appear that the writer of Hebrews and Ellen are talking about two different things. Ellen about defects in character and the Bible about unrepentant reprobates. Paul said that he died daily to sin. Did he finally at some point have a perfect character? All I know is that I will remain a sinner saved by Grace. I know that I can improve my character , but it will never on this Earth be perfect. I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!) What is the "full effect of Grace"? Prepare a group? Do you mean the SDA Church? Satan's final thrust against Jesus ended at the Cross. Satan was proven wrong and lost. Satan cannot rob me of my salvation. Try as he will I am safe in Jesus arms. Anyone who continues to claim the promise has this assurance. I don't believe we are saved as groups. Are not each one of us responsible to work out our own salvation? Jesus is patiently waiting. Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2025 Registered: 8-2004 |
Robert wrote: Paul said that he died daily to sin. No Paul did not ever say that. Your Adventist upbringing is showing. Paul was talking about being in constant danger, not about dying to sin. Hubb wrote: The Gospel is not primarily about you or me. It is about God. Is God showing justice when He exercises mercy to save sinners. The answer to this is in the Cross of Christ. However, God has staked his reputation in the lives of His people. (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and GC 489). I believe that Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people. It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. These are the ones sealed as the 144,000 (NOT the only ones who are saved!) How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000. No doubt by which you mean people living perfect lives. Those people then being within the group identified as "you and me" somehow becomes the ones who prove God in the Great Controversy. What weren't the other who you acknowledge to be saved throughout history enough to prove the Grace of God sufficient? I don't know Hubb you are a smart man, how can you hold to such ideas? Do you just not think about the implications of your belief? Surely you have been on here long enough to stimulate some thought in those directions. I do know the answer however, you like so many other Adventists have taken EGW's positions without question like a Roman Catholic may take the Pope's position or a Lutheran Martin Luther's position holding on to a tradition well past it's expiration date. Rather like Robert did above with the statement that Paul died daily to sin. NASB 1 Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE. New Protestants.com | ||
| Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99) member Username: Pilgrim99 Post Number: 165 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hubb, Assuming that you are one of the 144,000. What tribe are you from? | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2008 |
Thanks Ron, It is usually my custom to look up quotes or thoughts in scripture before presenting them. You are so correct. Forty some years in Adventism put imprints on my mind that I thought were sound Biblical thoughts. Every now and again I find something other than what I was taught. One such was when the family of Noah moved East and built the Tower of Babel on the plains of Shinar. Adventism, through the prophet's writings, teach they built it to avoid another flood. This is a blatant untruth. They built it to make a name for themselves and to keep from scattering all over the Earth. Ask almost any Adventist why the tower was built and you will get the flood answer. Ask any Adventist when the Sabbath was instituted for man and the answer will be on the seventh day of creation. I can't find any scripture that would indicate that man was instructed to observe Sabbath until after the exodus. In fact Deut. 5 tells us it was not with the fathers that the covenant was given it was only with the Israelites. Ask almost any Adventist about their tithing system and they will refer back to Abraham and that he was a tither. This is also misconstruing what really happened and as far as we know only one time did he pay it. It had nothing to do with the Israelite ongoing tithing system. The Adventist story about how Jesus went into the Father after sin entered is a fable. She said three times Jesus went in and pleaded with Him to allow Jesus to come to this Earth and pay the price of our redemption. The first two times God said no. The third try was sucessful and the angels shouted for joy. We believed all those storys and thought they were Biblical. How easily man is fooled. P.T. Barnum said one is born every minute. There were not as many births back then. Wonder how many are born every minute today? Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5644 Registered: 8-2004 |
Robert, nor will you find anything in the Bible about Noah preaching for 120 years before the flood. Guess where it originated? There is also no command in the Bible at all about the 7th day as a rest day until Sinai: no mention of Abraham or any other patriarchs keeping Sabbath. No worship or rest day was ever given to Christians, either. Nothing at all in the NT, period, instructing Christians about the requirement of paying tithe. It simply became a great financial benefit to the church to claim it as from the Bible, but it never was given for Christians. Conflating EGW with the Bible is so imprinted because it was begun before SDA children even attended school. Many also were raised on "Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories" were, much like Mother Goose and other fairy tales, they "all lived happily ever after." Then, when confronted with life's problems that didn't turn out so perfect, there was a great disillusionment. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2008 |
Thanks Ron, I wish I were as smart as you imply that I am! Here is your statement: . . . . "How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000." I wish you would read my post carefully and get the sense of what I am saying. I did NOT make a rather ambiguous statement that the "Great Controversy" is proved by grace ... What I said was that . . . . "Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people." In fact you went to the trouble to copy the full statement that I made. Read it again and compare it with your following comments. Then to cap it off, you "put words in my mouth" and say that I got it from EGW! I used to think that you were careful with your thinking and posting Ron, but this is slap-dash and irresponsible to say the least. Hubb | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2008 |
Devon, I'm glad you asked the question: I belong to the tribe of Issachar. Please be kind and emphasize the last half of this sentence! Hubb | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, You have made quite a list. It would take me or anyone else several hours to find the references and to respond. As a friend, I think you need to be careful, a person will not be saved because of what he is against, but rather that he is FOR Christ. I will comment on one statement, as this touches on the everlasting covenant: I don't recall having seen any statement that Jesus pleaded with the Father three times to be the Redeemer. Could you give me the reference? And did this happen AFTER sin entered the world? Rev. 13:8 speaks of Jesus as being the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." And this is just one of several references that show that the Plan of Salvation was laid in Council within the Godhead BEFORE Creation. Look again at the website, the very first article, and the references for that article. Hubert. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2008 |
Elaine, Did Noah preach for 120 years? Put these two verses together: Hubb | ||
| Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99) member Username: Pilgrim99 Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Hubb, Cute answer, but it was a serious question. How do SDA's and others, such as JW's who see themselves as part of the 144,000 reconcile their membership with the fact that specific tribal membership is required for inclusion in the 144,000? Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel: From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands. Revelation 7:4-9 NET If we are not truly a member of any of the listed tribes, would it not be more likely that we would be among the non Jewish persons from every tribe, people and language? | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2008 |
I hope the following helps Hubert. It took me a while to find it, but sure enough the following is from the "pen of inspiration". The apologists will say that she knew that the plan of salvation was from the foundation of the Earth. So why did she write this? "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race." (Great Controversy, p.347) "} as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:18-20) "Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 45) Emphasis mine. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert said: "As a friend, I think you need to be careful, a person will not be saved because of what he is against, but rather that he is FOR Christ." Well said Hubert. Thank you. I will say that I wish you had been around to tell the SDA Church that. It has not always been the most ecumenical. On the other hand, is it wrong to expose falsehood? In this case it was pointed out to me that what I paraphrased from Paul about Paul dieing daily to sin and it was not scriptural, only an Adventist cliché. I was merely pointing out a few other things I was taught that is not scriptural. I am encouraged that you pointed out that the plan of salvation was from the foundation of the World. Mrs. White was not that plain. Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert said: "Look again at the website, the very first article, and the references for that article." I am lost as to how to go about finding that article. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2008 |
Devon, We don't know everything about Revelation seven. Some things about that chapter may be symbolic. But hidden in my "cute answer" is serious intent. Genesis 49 is the chapter where Jacob blesses each of his children before he dies. With each blessing he describes the character of each son. I have always chosen Issachar, as I feel at times that I have "two burdens." Are the twelve tribes listed in Revelation seven all Jewish tribes? Or do they include Gentiles who are the "adopted Israel?" Frankly, I don't know, but I do believe that it is the latter, and that Gentiles are included. After all, most of the end time church will be gentiles. The 144,000 are a special end time group. More is described of them in Revelation 14:1-5. It would seem to me that this group would have to include, or even be largely made up of gentiles. I do not see anything in the Bible that indicates that ethnic Jews will be separately identified in end time events. Having said that, I also believe that individual Jews, with their God given talents will very important in God's end time work. Hubb | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2008 |
Quote: "that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 1, p. 45) In addition to the three times Jesus went before the Father the quoted statement above is within the paragraph. Question: If in addition to the covering of our sins by the Blood of the Lamb we have to be obedient to the laws of God, will any of us attain eternal life? I am under the assumption that all are disobedient to God's laws and that is the purpose of the covering blood. Has anyone (besides Jesus) ever been obedient to God's laws including the writer of the above statement? Should her statement have included the "and obedience to the law of God"? Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, Compare these two statements: The verse you quoted 1 Peter 1:18-20 helps to clear up this apparent discrepancy: The plan was made in the Council of Heaven before Creation, but not instituted (or activated) until after sin. (You scared me at first about this. I would have had to completely rewrite article #1 "From the Foundation of the World) Thank you for the quote of Christ being shut in with the Father three times, pleading for the human race. I was not aware of that quote. In my doing the covenant project, I have used the Bible with the help of WordSearch computer program for more than 95% of my findings. I have studied Patriarchs and Prophets pages 370-373 to see if what I said was in agreement with EGW (which it is). I have done this purposely, as the Bible is what most people will have and will accept. Incidentally there is significantly MORE information in the Bible than there is in EGW. This is understandable as she has never claimed to be a theologian. Another problem if I used the quote of "Christ shut in the Father three times" would be for me to support that statement. SDAs might accept EGW, but a website is read by many non-SDAs and they would not accept this. Hubb | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 60 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, About the website -- www.everlastingcovenant.com click on article #1 "From the Foundation of the World" then on "References" then on "The Lamb of God" Hope this helps. I have tried to make the website simple and easy to get around, but maybe I have not succeeded. Hubb | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, see a discussion on keeping the law in Article #12, "The Ten Commandments" and go down to "Can the Law Be Kept." Let me add to this Hebrews 12:2: Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith. It is my firm belief that we must not so much work to keep the law, as to learn complete trust and faith in Christ and leave our "perfection" up to Him. See also 1 John 1:6-10. Hubb | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2026 Registered: 8-2004 |
Hubb wrote: What I said was that . . . . "Satan's final thrust against Christ in the Great Controversy is to prove that grace is not sufficient to change lives or to save people." In fact you went to the trouble to copy the full statement that I made. Read it again and compare it with your following comments. Then to cap it off, you "put words in my mouth" and say that I got it from EGW! Surely you can do better then that Hubb. I have no concern with what you think Satan is going to do, it is in general worthless speculation. I do have concern over your statements about what God is going to do. Which is why my quote and statement is in context and relevant. As after your statement about Satan you said: It is in the purpose of God to prepare a group that will show the full effect of grace in their lives and prove Satan wrong. Satan has been proven wrong since before the cross if you believe what the Gospel of John says. When Jesus said now Satan is condemned. Now for the sake of clarity tell me where I put words in your mouth? I wrote: I don't know Hubb you are a smart man, how can you hold to such ideas? Do you just not think about the implications of your belief? Surely you have been on here long enough to stimulate some thought in those directions. I do know the answer however, you like so many other Adventists have taken EGW's positions without question like a Roman Catholic may take the Pope's position or a Lutheran Martin Luther's position holding on to a tradition well past it's expiration date. Rather like Robert did above with the statement that Paul died daily to sin. Your reaction was more like a hurt child then a thinking adult. New Protestants.com | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert, I didn't realize you were referring to your website. I just finished the article on keeping the law. I assume the law you are referring to is the Old Covenant. It is my understanding from many scriptures that the Old Covenant was fulfilled/accomplished at the Cross. Matt 5:18. Compare that with 2Cor 3:7-11 and you will get a better understanding of John 13:34 14:15 15:9-14. Then throw in James 2:8. Love is the driving force that holds Christians close to Jesus. What we do for the least of them we do to Him. The 10 Commandments and most of the other 300 laws of the Old were not about love. Choose Moses and his difficult yoke or Jesus. That is why Jesus could say that his yoke was easy and his burden light. Getting back to your study, Did you actually tell us if it is possible to keep it? The next subject in the study is the Sabbath. That would be very interesting to debate. I have no problem with worshipping on the Israelite Sabbath, but I do have a problem with those who believe they are "keeping" it holy or even the need to try. Its rules are not relative to New Covenant Christians. Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 62 Registered: 5-2008 |
Bob, In my opinion, most people do not understand the old covenant. When Israel arrived at Sinai, the covenant was given in these words: In these verses let me make three points: 1. What God will do for His people is by the power shown in their deliverance from Egypt. 2. He gave them "my covenant" (repeated in the Bible 51 times). This covenant was made before the foundation of the world and was given to Adam and Eve and to Abraham. 3. These same promises are carried through to the Christian church in the new testament. The people responded to this with the words: "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." These were human promises. Subsequent events showed that they were without faith. It was this old covenant that is spoken of as the first, old, faulty covenant. It lasted just 40 days at which time the Israelites put on a rebellious heathen festival. Symbolically, Moses threw down the tables of stone. When they broke the old covenant of human promises, they also broke the covenant of God. Moses instituted four intense intercessions with God to bring Israel back into the covenant again. It was God who again offered them the covenant (Exodus 34:10), The historical old covenant lasted just 40 days. After their restoration to the covenant of God, and with the passage of time, the people began to look on the sacrifices, ceremonies, rituals, etc as the center and focus of their religion. They forgot the Redeemer promised in the sacrificial system and fell back into a legalistic old covenant mentality. This was dominant at the time of Christ. The Ten Commandment law also had a preamble of grace. By the power of God to bring them out of Egypt, He would make the ten commandments alive in their experience. They were meant to be promises of what God would do by grace. The ten commandments, the tables of stone, were kept inside the ark of the covenant, and were called "the covenant." (not the old covenant) It was by following the principles of the ten commandments that God would make of them "an holy nation." And what about the new covenant, and the law of love? (later if we have time.) | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2008 |
Ron, Just thinking about this statement: . . . . "How can you say that the gospel is not primarily about you or me and then say in the next paragraph that the Great Controversy is proved by grace sufficient to seal 144,000. No doubt by which you mean people living perfect lives. Those people then being within the group identified as "you and me" somehow becomes the ones who prove God in the Great Controversy. What weren't the other who you acknowledge to be saved throughout history enough to prove the Grace of God sufficient?" In my first statement, the key word is "primarily." Of course the Gospel IS about saving man and restoring all that was lost by sin. But primarily, it is about the Law of God which is eternal and on which the order of heaven is built. Only the lawgiver, Jesus Christ, could take the penalty of the broken law and restore mankind. It is basic to a loving God that He will not abandon His creation. God "loved the world." When He finished creation, "He saw everyth8hg that He had made, and, behold, it was very good." This principle is repeated over and over again in the promises He makes through history. Adam held dominion of this earth under God. When Satan usurped this dominion and became "god of this world" it was impossible for him to hold dominion "under God." God could have used His power and authority to "zap Satan, and Adam for that matter." Instead, in His mercy, He gave His Son to take the penalty of the broken law, and to give mercy and grace to save man. So, it the primary focus on God? or on man? You cannot separate them but I believe that the primary focus is on the honor or God. -------------------------------- Do the 144,000 represent people who live perfect lives? This is a hot topic with many. Many will say that it is impossible to keep the law of God. In thus saying they side with Satan in saying that God is arbitrary and unfair to make such a law in the first place. Actually, people generally and Christians in particular keep the law at least on a superficial basis. When was the last time that you murdered someone? Picked someone's pocket? Took your secretary to Reno for the weekend? Christians do not do things like that. So where is it hard to keep the law? Keeping the first four commandments show our love to God and accepting Him as Lord of our lives. Lacking this we are proud. The last six commandments show our love for our fellow man. Lacking this we are selfish. In breaking any of them we show unbelief. Thus the heart of the sinful nature is unbelief, pride and selfishness. It is these three characteristics that make up the sinful nature. Only by grace can a man be lifted out of unbelief, pride and selfishness. Can this ever be done to perfection? Has it ever been done to perfection? These are questions for which we do not have the answer. We do know that God's special promises are to the overcomer (see the messages to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3). See also Hebrews 12:2 where Jesus is pictures as the Author and the Finisher of our faith. Then read 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the logic. Jesus will cleanse us from all sin, but we can never look at ourselves and say that we "have arrived." ------------------------------- Where is Satan in all this? He is shown to be the "accuser of the brethren." When Joshua, the high priest, is brought into judgment (Zech. 3) Satan is pictured as being there to "resist him." What is Satan doing? He is saying that God has no right to save a sinner, clothed in filthy rags, like Joshua. But God removes the filthy rags, forgives his sins, and gives him new clean clothes. In this God is showing that He will not permit Satan to have even one person who trusts in Him. Is grace sufficient to save? Through faith in Him, YES, it is. Hubb | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert wrote: 1. What God will do for His people is by the power shown in their deliverance from Egypt. 2. He gave them "my covenant" (repeated in the Bible 51 times). This covenant was made before the foundation of the world and was given to Adam and Eve and to Abraham. 3. These same promises are carried through to the Christian church in the new testament. First point I totally agree with. Second point, God may have formulated the covenant before the foundation of the Earth, but where is it said that it was given to Adam and Abe? God surely did make a covenant with Adam and Abe, but they were not nearly as complicated as the over 300 laws of the Israelites. Why is it that all Jewish historians tell us the covenant was to them only and that Noah had was given a simple covenant. Why is it recorded in Deut 5: Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. We are specifically told that It was Israel's covenant. And by the way, the fourth commandment there tell us that it was to remember their flight out of Egypt that the command to remember the Sabbath was given. So what really was written on the tablets of stone? This leads us to the arguement as to why Gentiles would ever be subject to the Sabbath law because it is not our fathers that were led out of Egypt. You didn't comment on a previous passage I directed you to, it was 2Cor 3: 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! That ministry is the Holy Spirit working in our hearts promoting the law of love. The cold stones are forever in our past and are only a reminder to those who have not accepted the Grace of Jesus. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. I don't know about you, but this seems like a pretty simple truth. I know it collides with what the prophet has written, so we have to choose what to believe. Mrs. White made grave errors in some of her writings as I have pointed to a few. How do we sort out which ones are fact and which ones are fiction? Can we trust her? The third point is covered in my second response.{ Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2008 |
Excuse me for butting in. Your answer is on the same tone as the one we are writing about. Hubert wrote: Keeping the first four commandments show our love to God and accepting Him as Lord of our lives. Lacking this we are proud. The last six commandments show our love for our fellow man. Lacking this we are selfish. In breaking any of them we show unbelief. Thus the heart of the sinful nature is unbelief, pride and selfishness. This seems to be a cliché that many Christians use, but in reality the 10 commandments are not about love. They have to do more with obedience. They are mostly written in a negative tone. You shall not... They were laws and if broken could lead to some of the other supportive laws of the covenant, one being death. On the other hand the laws that Jesus gave all mankind are positive and when broken His blood covers them forever. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 283 Registered: 1-2008 |
Hi Renie, First of all there is no tithe in the New Testament church by any directive that I can make out. Secondly, we have a simple mission; relieve suffering humanity and spread the Gospel, which is forgivness for our sins and power/deliverance from them. If I am to listen to Paul after the counsel arrived at when the Jewish converts were insisting that the Gentile converts keep the OT tenets of the law, I can only come to one conclusion. In Acts Chapter 15 the Jewish converts insisted that the Gentile converts be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. There was a big "pow wow" amongst the elders and Peter related that the Holy Spirit had come upon the converts signifying their acceptance by God "purifying their hearts by faith" and why put a yoke upon them that "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear, but we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they". The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law. The consensus of the meeting was as thus: " Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood". Then they wrote letters to the other churches about the meeting saying " it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well". Paul repeats this again in Acts 21:25. That's it, and you will find out as you read from Pauls writings further on( Rom14, 1 Cor 8:4-9, 1Cor10: 23-33, Col. 2:16,20,21,22, 1Tim4:1-6.) that they were not to eat these meats not because they were unclean, but so that those who did consider them as so would not be turned from hearing the Gospel. God did not create these animals as unclean, but designated them as so, after the fall of Adam and Eve, for a time to be used as object lessons of self denial (did you know that pork is considered the most nutritious of the meats) in the war against the inclinations of our lower natures. When the sheet was lowered three times to Peter in Acts chapter 10, and "the voice" had instructed "what God hath cleansed, that call not common", it meant that the unclean designation was no longer in effect as to man or beast. That is why Paul could say "I KNOW AND AM PERSUADED BY THE LORD JESUS, THAT THERE IS NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF". For everything created before the fall "God saw that it was good". Now, you'll have to forgive me for digressing a bit, but it was to make a point concerning tenets of the law, as was tithing. Tithing was tied into an enclosed Jewish religio/national economic system that involved much interrelated factors that involved giving and recieving upon certain criteria and levels within that nation that can not be applied to the universal New Testament church. And what was tithed was based upon the profits gained at the end of the year after all the other debts and demands were satisfied by those who met the criteria to pay tithe. Every third year the tithe was witheld by the thithee to use at his own discretion in relieving the burdens of the less fortunate, the stranger and the Levite. The Levites used this for their sustenance and the accomodations needed for the sanctuary service; animals and what not. They had no inheiritance, no land, nothing to own ( the church leaders of today do not fit this criteria, they own plenty). This was a good bar against corruption, however not foolproof, as we see by Matt. 21:12 when Jesus "overturned the tables of the moneychangers" etc. Deut.24 and 25 and also 1Cor. 9 say that the laborer whether for secular work or the Gospel have a right to derive sustenance for their labors ("shall not muzzle the ox"), but this is not a directive for tithe. It comes from voluntary offerings and whatever other labors they may make gain. Speaking of Paul, Acts 18:3 says: "because he was of the same craft, he abode with them (Aquilla and Pricilla) and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers". (Why, were people witholding tithe? No, there wasn't any more tithing.) continued: | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2008 |
Let's see some examples of how the money was handled, gained or used in the N.T. church. Acts 20:32-35: "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive". Romans 15: 25-28: " But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain". (It doesn't mention him bringing any tithe to a Jerusalem church, central storehouse, only offerings for "poor saints") 1 Cor 16: 1-3 " Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by [your] letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem". ( No tithe being sent here either; there wasn't one.) 2Cor. 9:5-7 "Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as [a matter of] bounty, and not as [of] covetousness. But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2Cor. 9:12-13 "For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];". 2Cor. 9:15 " Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift. (GIFT, no tithe here either) Phil.4: 10-19 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction. Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Where on earth was the tithe money? There wasn't any. It was all about sacrificial giving from the heart.) When we come into an experience where "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us"Rom.5:5, we will live to further the Gospel and relieve the suffering of humanity whereas much of it is do to a trickling down, a result of, the greed of the powers that be and those that fall under their influences. Some quote Matt. 23:23 ( "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone".) to substantiate the claim that tithe is carried on in the N.T. church, but is it? No, These folks were not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah and Jesus hadn't died and rose yet in fulfillment of the law, therefore they were still under obligation to the ordinances of the law. We don't do that now. continued | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2008 |
When Jesus cleansed the leper in Matt. 8:4, Mark 1:44, and Luke 5:14 he told him to " tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded". We don't do that now when we're healed, do we? In Acts 16:3 Paul had Timothy circumcised as not to offend the Jews. They also, in Acts 21, shaved their heads for a vow for the rite of purification so as not to offend the Jews that had not accepted Christ's Gospel so that they would be able to approach them with it. We don't become circumcised or shave our heads according to the law today either. All these things, tithe and what not, were of Old Covenant Israel. The tithing system is a barrier to those who need the Gospel the most. It keeps them away when they can't afford it. When and If the "poor widow", of Mark 12, who gave the "two mites" had an income of 500 dollars a year and all her living expences amounted to 498 dollars and she gave the other two dollars to the church ("all she had, even all her living") would she be accused of withholding tithe? The O.T. tithe being mandated in the N.T. church tends to let people into thinking that when they give the10 percent, that they can live like the world with the rest. They become fogged to the concept that it all belongs to God. When there is no minimum reqirement placed on our means and our hearts, through a close abiding with the Holy Spirit, become burdened for those who have not what we have experienced in the Gospel, we will be inspired to be productive with our efforts to gain wealth in order to help those in captivity to sin be set free. Isn't that what we're supposed to be living for? Do I disregard the obvious needs of the sinners around me because, this sinner, me, has spent what means would have been available on the false tithe, or am I ready to meet the needs of those on my path as was the good Samaritan. Am I to be involved in personally touching the hearts of poor or suffering or lost and wayward sinners or am I, a saved sinner, that hopes they make it because I dropped whatever power I had to be able to help, into the basket from the church pew? Maybe the gvt will give a hoot, they're a warm hearted, Gospel living, salvation message bearing bunch, not! The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy that takes liberties that foster affluence, avarice, greed, and power and position that are not unlike what Luther recognized as the corruption in the church of his day which stood in stark contrast to the lowly Jesus and the self-sacrificing spirit of the church as recorded in the scriptures. These unsound liberties are an offence to the poorer sacrificing members and a corrupting influence to the membership on the whole. Just flip on the TV and hear the shameful bragging of the wealth that many evangelists live within and promise their members that they can have too if they keep pumping up the tithe treasury. It's called "prosperity preaching" and it appeals to a spirit of covetesness and idolatry, not holiness. You would think by the example of Jesus, that the leadership of God's church would set a closer example of self- sacrifice that the spirit would filter down through the masses and glorify God. Why isn't there any tithe in the Cathoilic church today? They are the direct decendants of the N.T. church. Because, there never was any tithe after Christ. Believe me, if there ever was, they never would have discontinued it. They get their filthy lucre from indulgences that the decieved followers of the Roman Catholic Church pay to earn their own and their dead relatives salvation and freedom from purgatory. They get their other monies from free will offerings and donations because that's how it always was and still is, unless you preach a false doctrine. THERE IS NO BIBLICAL FOUNDATION FOR TITHE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH Cadge | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2008 |
I applaud you Cadge. A very powerful posting. What do we do with the myriad of writings Mrs. White had to say about the subject even some from her "I saw"? Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5655 Registered: 8-2004 |
And if the Israelites could not get to the place where tithe was to be paid they could use the money to buy "whatever you like, oxen, sheep, wine, strong drink, anything your heart desires" (Deut. 14:25-26). | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 155 Registered: 7-2008 |
Thanks Cadge for your in depth study on tithing or, I guess, not tithing. I'm printing it off along with many other comments from the rest of you to give to my pastor at the next board meeting. All of your comments have given me confidence to go forward. I feel assured that making my concerms known is a valid move.. I'm not usually a fighter. I sorta sit back and figure the Lord will take care of it, but sometimes He needs a little help. renie | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5656 Registered: 8-2004 |
Renie, we're his hands and if it's to be, it's up to me, isn't it? Tne "Lord's Workers" aren't alwayss doing what they should, sad to say. I would simply ask him that if we're Christians, where in the NT do we find any instruction or command to pay tithe? OTOH, if we're still Jews, why do we need Jesus, they got along without him didn't they? | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2008 |
Tithe in the New Testament: Tithing was a system advocated in the Old Testament for support of the Levites. Apparently it was largely built on the barter system, and used in some cases for events that were specifically Jewish. Since there is no clear “thou shalt pay a tithe” in the New Testament does that mean that the issue was ignored? Are there principles from the custom of tithing that would be applicable today? Malachi 3:8-12 is probably the clearest old testament passage about the tithe. In this passage, tithing is an obligation, and those who do not pay “tithes and offerings” are “robbers of God.” Tithes were to be brought into a “storehouse” which is not defined except to provide (“meat” or food) in the house of God. This would indicate that tithes and offerings were to support God’s work. Are poor people expected to pay tithe? To specify one tenth of one’s increase as the tithe is a very fair system. There is no question but that the rich have much more “discretionary income than the poor.” But the promise is that those who pay tithe will be richly blessed. Maybe the poor need that blessing even more than the rich? With this as a background, what can we say for the New Testament church? A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed: Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2008 |
Some will argue that the church is corrupt, has become an instrument of Satan, is lead by greedy politicians and should not be supported. Some who take this extreme view are actually trying to destroy the church. Some have taken the next logical step to establish independent churches – most of which have failed, and none have had more than a local influence. How does God view the church? No question God is disappointed with the church. It contains too many unrepentant sinners and hypocrites (bad fish). But, the Bible pictures the church as the “bride” greatly loved by her Husband, Christ. Revelation 12 describes a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” And remember, this is the “remnant” the end time church. To address specific questions: Cadge has presented a rather extensive argument against tithing in the Christian church. Here is one sentence: ”No tithe in the New Testament” is not entirely true. The principle is there. This is shown in his next statement, to “relieve suffering humanity and spread the gospel.” How can this be done if the people do not support the church? This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians. Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2008 |
Paul discusses support of the church in a number of passages, none of which advocate tithing, yet none deny the principle. The principle of tithing is a very fair way to spread the burden of support equally among the members. One final quote: This is entirely a human supposition. It is true that tithe is sometimes misused. Does this mean that we should not pay tithe? Is a hierarchy wrong? The Seventh-day Adventist church was organized in order to support the world wide mission effort, which has been quite successful because of following God’s plan for support. The hierarchy of the SDA is much different from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church. Can these things be corrupted? Yes. Have they been corrupted? To some degree, yes. Has God abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist church? NO! Is the hierarchy corrupt? A resounding NO! The ministry and the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church are largely Spirit-led God fearing men and women. Is there dead wood and bad apples among them? Probably. It is after all a human effort. But I fully believe that God has given a message to this church that He purposes to be given to the world, and that through this church He is preparing a people to see Him come again. ----------------------- Hubert F. Sturges . | ||
| Devon Gordon (Pilgrim99) member Username: Pilgrim99 Post Number: 169 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hubb, Do you believe that all we own really belongs to God? If so, our attitude should be to hold our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God. The imperfect fellowship that I attend, does not advocate tithing, yet we are able to function and to support several specific overseas missionaries, Gospel for Asia and a county wide crisis pregnancy organization. Well taught people give out of thanks, not out of a legal obligation. Limiting our giving to 10% is kind of like limiting our worship to one day out of a seven day week. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2008 |
Devon, Yes, I do believe that the Bible teaches that all belongs to God. Adam was given dominion of this earth under God. He, himself, also belonged to God, as do we. You have well said that we should hold all our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God. The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings. While SDAs strongly recommend tithing, it is not a legal obligation. From what I have heard only 30% of SDAs pay tithe. I have been on many church boards and a person's membership has never been questioned on the basis of paying tithe. Incidentally, our worship is not limited to one day a week. In the sanctuary service there was the morning and evening sacrifice every day. We recommend the same in our church, that people worship God every day, and that all that a person does in business and pleasure be "done unto God." | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 286 Registered: 1-2008 |
Hubb, By this statement you lead me to believe that you thought that I was saying that people should not support the church: "”No tithe in the New Testament” is not entirely true. The principle is there. This is shown in his next statement, to “relieve suffering humanity and spread the gospel.” How can this be done if the people do not support the church?" You must have missed this : Deut.24 and 25 and also 1Cor. 9 say that the laborer whether for secular work or the Gospel have a right to derive sustenance for their labors ("shall not muzzle the ox"), but this is not a directive for tithe. It comes from voluntary offerings and whatever other labors they may make gain. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5670 Registered: 8-2004 |
There are a lot of good "principles" in the Bible. However, to make them obligatory does not change the fact that they are more like "suggestions." There should be a better way of defining principles than making them doctrines. From the "Fundamentals:" "Tithes As one seventh of our time (the Sabbath) belongs to God, so does one tenth of all material things we acquire. Scripture tells us the the tithe is "holy to the Lord," symbolizing God's ownership of everything (Lev. 27:30,32). It is to be returned to Him as His own. When God calls for the tithe (Mal. 3:10), He makes no appeal to gratitude of generosity....We tithe because God has commanded it." There are no NT texts shown; all come for the OT. Is the OT the rule and faith for Christian practice or Jewish? All those rules were given to the Jews and never to Christians. Are Adventists Jewish/Christians? | ||
| David J Cadieux (Cadge) member Username: Cadge Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2008 |
Hubb said: "A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed:" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19), -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And: "Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid." My reply: Hubb, if you want to make tithe for the N.T. church legitimate, you have to do it by the scriptures, not wants, hopes and suppositions. The "binding" has to be based on the Word. As I have shown, there is no scriptural basis for tithe in the N.T. church. I'm sure that the Pope would be very happy to claim that rationalization that you've put forth in an attempt exhonorate Catholicism from a host of criticisms. ------------------------ Hubb quotes me: “The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then Hubb says: "This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians. Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant." To which I say, huh? The term "Torah" (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "teaching" or "instruction," sometimes translated as "Law,"[1]) most commonly refers to the text of the Five Books of Moses or Pentateuch. It may also refer to the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah Cadge | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5671 Registered: 8-2004 |
There are a lot of good "principles" in the Bible. However, to make them obligatory does not change the fact that they are more like "suggestions." There should be a better way of defining principles than making them doctrines. From the "Fundamentals:" "Tithes As one seventh of our time (the Sabbath) belongs to God, so does one tenth of all material things we acquire. Scripture tells us the the tithe is "holy to the Lord," symbolizing God's ownership of everything (Lev. 27:30,32). It is to be returned to Him as His own. When God calls for the tithe (Mal. 3:10), He makes no appeal to gratitude of generosity....We tithe because God has commanded it." There are no NT texts shown; all come for the OT. Is the OT the rule and faith for Christian practice or Jewish? All those rules were given to the Jews and never to Christians. Are Adventists Jewish/Christians? No one is knocking the benefit tithing offers the church to make it easier to operate. Taxes also allows us to enjoy the benefits of our citizenship. Taxes are not voluntary; tithe is not voluntary for the church's employees, but should be for all its members. | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert wrote: "The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings." Hubert, allow me to remind you again that only those who raised animals and produce were under the tithing law. The carpenter,shoe maker, tent maker and etc. did not pay tithe. I believe you are telling us that all were required to pay tithe. If you are going to follow the Old Covenant at least get it correctly. What makes you think the church can teach that all have an obligation to tithe when God didn't even require everyone under the law to tithe? You quote scripture “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19) I would be very careful using that bit of scripture to give the SDA Church a free hand at creating a modified tithing system. The SDA Church is very critical of the RCC for stating the above to justify how they conduct their church. First of all the SDA Church claims that their modified tithing system is Biblical. We have proven that it is not Biblical. You have given no proof that it was a law imposed upon all Israelites. You have given no proof that it was ever paid in shekels. You have given no proof that it is a New Testament teaching. You surely wouldn't get very far with your arguments in a court of law. Ellen White said it is the right thing to do, but can we trust her? She was sure wrong about Jesus pleading with the Father to come and be the redeemer after the fall. You even quoted the truth about the matter. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2008 |
Cadge, To comment on this statement of yours: You claim that there is "no scriptural basis for tithing in the New Testament." I have shown the following: 1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them. 2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing. 3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope. The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do. ---------------------- Hubert F. Sturges . | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hubert wrote: You claim that there is "no scriptural basis for tithing in the New Testament." I have shown the following: 1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them. Why not Hubert? Why did our forefathers divide the two? The old was for the Israelites only and the new is for all mankind. The old was a lot of tho shall nots and the new is love your neighbor. The old is a wonderful history with many great thoughts that can enhance our World today. The new introduces the Holy Spirit as our guide. The old uses the law of Moses. I could go on and on about the contrast. Get the point? It is not more of the same. Paul makes the point, without a doubt, at the Council of Trent. 2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing. First of all Jesus and all the Jews were under the Old Covenant. What else could Jesus tell the Pharisees? The New Covenant was not ratified until the Cross after the old was fulfilled by Jesus. It is not beside the point. Jews didn't pay tithe in coins and not all Jews paid tithe. If the church insists on using the Old Covenant modified tithing system, at least be brave enought to tell the flock that it isn't Biblical, but we are going to use it anyway. What the church is now doing is deceiving the flock. 3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope. The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do. Hummm! Think about it Hubert. The SDA Church takes a few Old Covenant laws, incorporates them into its doctrines and they become canon. They leave almost all of the remainder of the laws and say they were nailed to the Cross. How different is that from what the RCC does? There are no laws concerning the worship service. SDAs mimic the RCCs worship pattern, but modify it enough to kinda disguise it. They make the sanctuary a holy place and the platform the most holy. Again not from scripture, only from the RCCs. Tell me again that SDAs use the scripture "Whatsoever you bind........" differently than do the RCC. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2008 |
Well, went to the church board meeting Monday night and the committee did what I thought it would. They stuck with the pastor. My friend (who no longer qualifies as an elder since she is unable to pay a tithe) went with me. We shared our concerns about the pastor presenting the names of tithe payers to the nominating committee. I mentioned some of the good information you guys had shared with me too. There was some shock that this could happen and some discussion as to the privacy issue, The treasurer seemed shocked. He said he didn't know what the list was for when he gave it to the pastor. Said he feels uncomfortable giving out any information. In the end the committee would not vote on my recommendations. They were: 1. That the committee recommend that tithe not be an issue in picking someone for church office. And that the committee give that recommendation to next year's nominating committee. 2. That the treasurer not give out names of members and their tithe paying records, except to an assistant treasurer or an auditor. When it came time to vote, all the members sat there with their heads down and the pastor, who was sitting at the end of the table, sat there looking over his glasses at everyone with his arms folder over his chest. HE HAD WON! My friend and I thanked them for listening and left. In the end, it's all about the green stuff (money) and not about people. I don't know what to do now. I should just leave and find another church, but some of my friends are in that church (they weren't on the church board). Maybe I will stay away for a month or so and see how I feel. It's always hard to loose when you are fighting for a cause. renie | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) member Username: Sirje Post Number: 2883 Registered: 2-2002 |
Renie, You did good. Don't let this stuff ruin your friendships - then they will really have won. Hold your head up high and do what your heart tells you. Been there, done that. | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 166 Registered: 7-2008 |
Thanks Sirje.....thanks so much for your words. I need them. I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given me. It always helps to know there are people who have been there and know how I feel. Thanks for your friendship. renie | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2008 |
Irene, I have been through some church problems and have come to this philosophy: Mistakes have been made, wrong actions have been taken. What should we do? 1. The church is not primarily about the pastor or even about the officers. It is about Jesus Christ. 2. Even when you are right and the leaders are wrong, do not leave the church. You can still worship God, and that is what church is about. 3. You can still attend the SS classes and fellowship with friends and encourage them. 4. You can still help others and witness in whatever way you choose. Bottom Line: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others! Please pardon my giving advice from the sidelines. I wish I could say that I have followed my own advice. In looking back on my experience, I wish that this is what I had done. ---------------------- Hubert F. Sturges . | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5705 Registered: 8-2004 |
Renie, for what it's worth, I would go to the conference president (or write a letter) and tell him the whole story. If he doesn't answer your concern in a reasonable amount of time and satisfactorily, I would inform the union president. This behavior is despicable. And when something is inherently wrong, to ignore it means that someone is willing to accomodate to it and essentially, put up with it. Otherwise, how do you feel if you haven't done all you possibly can to see that this doesn't happen again? Think of the Catholic priests who were shunted from one parish to another because people didn't scream loudly enough. You will know what you should do, then follow your integrity. I disagree with Hubb's statement: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others! In the face of wrong actions, the failure to speak up is what eventually caused the Holocaust; it is what allows children to be molested; it allows people to steal from churches; it allows evil to continue when we have an opportunity to stop it. What is they say about good people who stand by and do nothing when they could change things? | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2008 |
I am trying to point out when action is effective, and when it is not. If you do what Elaine says, you will be labeled a trouble maker and marginalized. I know, I have been through it. Of course, you must speak up at the right times. Those times are when a wrong is within your sphere of influence. The criminal actions that Elaine speaks of must be opposed with every means at our disposal. I think you are right about those tithe lists, but those are not criminal actions. When you have said what needs to be said, and the pastor and the church board vote against you -- the conference is going to side with the pastor and the board. So, then is the time to be quiet and pray. Sometimes a wrong is so egregious that you have to move on. But there is a right time to move on. Be careful that you do not "cut off your nose to spite your face!" In some cases it is better to let some time go by, let the situation cool down. Then if in your best judgment you need to move on, you will not be considered to be pitying yourself. Well ... I tank I say too much already! ------------------------- Hubb | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2008 |
You both, Elaine and Hubb state so many good points. I'm inclined to agree with you Hubb. You are absolutely right that the conference and union presidents would commend my pastor for his loyalty. And I would look like a trouble causer. I am going to have to take some time off from church . I need the time to decide what I'm going to do down the road. renie. | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4869 Registered: 8-2004 |
If there is anything the SDA church needs, it's trouble causers. It's not virtuous to absorb spiritual abuse passively. That's why the social system is so unhealthy - initiative is punished and passivity is rewarded. Maggie | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2008 |
If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit -- in the lives of individual believers and in the church body as a whole. Issues of church administration tend to end up as power struggles and take our eyes off what it means to be a Christian -- to follow and be like Jesus Christ. Let us not be distracted from that goal. | ||
| Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler) member Username: Carol_fowler Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2008 |
Amen Maggie!!! Hubb, I'm not sure the Adventist church would recognize the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Anything that doesn't follow the status quo (meaning Ellen's teachings) is squashed like a pesky bug. But, carry on, and continue to see the church dry up, as hundreds of thousands of people have moved on, and shook the dust off their feet. New wine into old wineskins won't do. Speaking of going to the conference president, is it possible that this is coming down from "on high"? Just a thought. Not that I'm excusing bad stuff from the pastor, but that is how it works in Adventism. | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2031 Registered: 8-2004 |
Just out of curiosity do you have someone you know on the board who is in agreement with you. If so have him/her place the item and your recommendations on the agenda and next meeting ask for a vote. The Pastor as chairman should not be voting unless there is a tie vote. Until they actually vote on this issue it is not over as long as you can get a board member to make a motion to vote on the recommendations. New Protestants.com | ||
| Irene Longfellow (Renie) member Username: Renie Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2008 |
I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too. renie | ||
| Bob Sands (Bob_2) member Username: Bob_2 Post Number: 9845 Registered: 1-2005 |
Irene, I have only followed briefly what Hubb and Elaine are recommending. I was threatened with censure on an issue, I considered right. If I didn't stay quiet or shut up on an issue I felt needed exposure, so I transferred my membership to another SDA church so I could speak freely. And Elaine and Hubb, I was ignored at local, conference, Union and GC levels, but the local municipality convicted an Elder of the local church in question of assault. Shame on the whole church system, I say, and I have moved on, after I got the conviction of this guy. God is, therefore I think! | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5712 Registered: 8-2004 |
The problems of small churches. We who are blessed to be able to attend larger churches do not realize how difficult things are in these churches. There is usually a clique that has run things for years and the pastor realizes that and so doesn't push things. That may not be the reason, but from what you say, Renie, it appears that no one wants to cross the pastor, so if you want to change things it's going to be up to you. What have you got to lose? Your membership? Do you fear they'll disfellowship you or ostracise you? The only thing for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. The pastor has been using the arrogance of power. | ||
| Carol Fowler (Carol_fowler) member Username: Carol_fowler Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2008 |
Question: How does the pastor know if people are paying 10%, 8.5%, or what percentage, unless he knows what their salary is? This is all so bogus and wrong!!! Fear and intimidation are tools the SDA church has wielded very effectively from the beginning. | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4872 Registered: 8-2004 |
If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.... The same could be said of the religious people of Jesus' time. Jesus had some choice words for them about their converts being "twofold children of hell," and all that. It would hardly be fair to blame the converts, whose lives the Jews ruined, for the Holy Spirit not being poured out on the Jewish religion. Likewise, I think it most unfair and unseemly for SDAs to blame whistleblowers, whom the SDA church has stonewalled, wounded and otherwise mistreated, for holding back the Holy Spirit. It is very debased thinking, it seems to me, to try to silence people into submission with a smoothly delivered load of guilt. You look for a Messiah who comes in and vindicates you to the world, like the Jews did. Their money tables were overturned. Those who call themselves Shepherds must bear all the exquisite responsibility that entails. A person has to have a self to give that self to God. People who have been stunted in their intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual growth by abusive social groups first need to take care of themselves and put themselves where they can heal and catch up with their own development. They owe nothing to their abusers but to grow up and make the world a safer place, so that others don't suffer in the same way. We can forgive and bless the past, but if we make ourselves mice, we can be sure the cats will eat us. That said, may God bless all those on the Seventh-day Adventist path. May they all find what their hearts most desire. Maggie | ||
| Ron Corson (Ron) member Username: Ron Post Number: 2032 Registered: 8-2004 |
I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too. Well unless you are a member of the board you can't call for a vote. But if anyone on the board made a movement for a vote and it was seconded then they have to vote (it has to be voted on even if it is simply a motion to table the motion, if tabled they have to deal with it at the next meeting). If your church board is not following established board procedures they are in violation of SDA church procedures, that is they must have established rules for how a board functions, such as Roberts Rules of Order. http://www.robertsrules.com/ Get a copy of the minutes and see what they say. You church may have bigger problems then just inappropriate distribution of tithe information. If that is the case you have to go to the conference administration. My guess is that they are not following proper procedures and the board is being manipulated by a Pastor who is acting improperly in his office. New Protestants.com | ||
| Robert L. Shields (Onthebeam) member Username: Onthebeam Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2008 |
Renie, I want to say this in a kind way and still nail the fact that if the church were to follow the plan set forth in chapters 8 and 9 of 2 Cor you wouldn't be in this problem. New Covenant believers are to give out of their heart. There is no set amount, but where there is a need, because we love the Lord, we will rally to that need. Those who are more fortunate will be able to give larger amounts. Sometimes sacrifice is needed to support the mission of the church. If churches would follow the plan set forth in the New Testament there would be no list of "faithful tithe payers". No one would ever know another persons giving habits. The rule that only faithful "tithe" payers may be leaders in the church is sick, sick and more sick and only causes strife. Many are coerced into paying and giving that way is not out of love, the way the Lord would have us to give. Instead of taxing, which is what the modified tithing system is, allow each one to give because they love Jesus and want to see the church fulfill its mission. Our daughter is a teacher in the SDA system and she was giving some of her money to special needs. Like in your church the fathers found out because her recorded modified tithe didn't reflect her wages. She was told that she could no longer be hired if she continued to give her money to special needs. Coercion at its finest. Bob Where there is life there is hope. | ||
| Hubert F. Sturges (Lijhakim) member Username: Lijhakim Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2008 |
I would like to remind you all that there is another side to the coin. Are there problems in the church, absolutely. But in this discussion it is being blown all out of proportion. You need to realize also that people in leadership positions have to deal constantly with chronic complainers and real trouble makers. Because of the volume of these complaints they have little time to evaluate and deal with valid situations. And realize also that conference offices tend to have small staffs to deal with thousands of members. If we were to really become political and accept the notion that the conference will solve all our problems, we would have to increase conference staffs ten fold and tax the members enough to make a tithe seem like pennies! Hubb | ||
| Bob Sands (Bob_2) member Username: Bob_2 Post Number: 9850 Registered: 1-2005 |
Come on Hubb, that is like saying don't rely on the Conference Officials to know truth, because they don't have time to recognize it. Sheeeeeeeeesh!!! God is, therefore I think! | ||
