| Author | Message | ||
     Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4674 Registered: 8-2004 |
Famous movie lines: Harry: I've never lied to you, Erica. I've always told you some version of the truth.Something's gotta give, for sure, and it isn't gonna be the truth, because the truth doesn't have versions. Maggie | ||
| Neal Walls (Nwalls) member Username: Nwalls Post Number: 541 Registered: 5-2008 |
If I opposed EGW as having the gift of prophecy there is no way that I could teach religion in an Adventist school. I know an SDA minister that does not believe Ellen had the Gift of Prophecy. But he just doesn't talk about it. Ignores it. Changes the subject. Told me that the church, more than any other, most closely believes what he believes. I have told him that by carrying the ministerial credentials he is implying that he agrees with ALL of the fundamentals and is therefore lying by taking their paycheck. The ignoring the question... Sorta like what you do about the "Show me where Ellen explained how God came into existence?" question I asked 3 or 4 times. Maybe you should also just ignore this debate about Ellen. Might make your job more secure. Oh, and I agree with Sirje- You are out to lunch on this one. | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 4936 Registered: 5-2006 |
BTW, if all our teachers have to sign a statement of "loyalty" in order to teach, what does that statement include? Such a statement doesn't exist, as far as I know. I believe it was proposed at one time for University professors. What you call 'Baloney' and 'Out to Lunch' is a "fact" observed by this teacher within Adventism for over 30 years. I was taught it at Southern, that bastion of SDA conservative thought. Nonetheless, I am willing to be proven wrong. Bring in someone with more experience, or proven stories, and I will reconsider my assertions. Meanwhile
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| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4675 Registered: 8-2004 |
I do not believe that Seventh-day Adventists can be reasoned with. Maggie | ||
| Sirje Walkowiak (Sirje) member Username: Sirje Post Number: 2855 Registered: 2-2002 |
Well Don, This teacher has been observing Adventism, for forty-seven years and I'm here to tell you, regardless what you personally believe is the case, the SDA church demands a belief in Ellen White for the purpose of service within that church. They may not ask any one outright about their loyalties because they may not want to know, but if it ever came to light that an employee had doubts about the EGW being the prophet the baptismal vow is talking about, they would be out of a job and that sounds like a DEMAND to me. | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 4942 Registered: 5-2006 |
Sirje, I think we are saying the same thing about employees. In light of all the "newer" revelations, I believe the SDA church should seek to be understanding of its employees doubt and angst re: EGW. The SDA church should not tolerate full scale opposition to Ellen White. Otherwise, it should be tolerant. This would be true for the Lutherans and Luther; the Methodists and John Wesley; the Reformed and Calvin; Knox and the Presbyterians; etc. I believe that these church leaders also had the NT spiritual gifts. | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5421 Registered: 8-2004 |
I am willing to be proven wrong. Bring in someone with more experience, or proven stories, and I will reconsider my assertions. "There's the dead body, officer, do you think he's been killed, or can you testify that he is really dead? Would an autopsy be convincing?" Convince a man against his will and he's of the same opinion still. Where there's life there's hope? | ||
| Elaine Nelson (Elaine) member Username: Elaine Post Number: 5422 Registered: 8-2004 |
You've been given at least a dozen names of those who, since Adventism began, doubted EGW's honesty and truthfulness when she asserted that all she wrote was given her by God and not one word was hers alone. You've been shown all the evidence of her copying pages from other authors while claiming they were not just her words, but God-given. How much evidence does it take? How could you be a juror? Would there ever be sufficient evidence to convince you? What would it look like? What are you waiting for, a bolt from the blue? A light like Paul to knock you off your feet? It's been repeated ad infinitum here on this website and you still can't see it. Take of those SDA colored glasses and maybe things will become a little clearer. | ||
| Neal Walls (Nwalls) member Username: Nwalls Post Number: 545 Registered: 5-2008 |
I believe that these church leaders also had the NT spiritual gifts. The Gift of Prophecy? They were God's Messenger's like Ellen? Should the SDA printing presses start publishing the works of Luther? Wesley? (Why were God's Messages via Ellen copyrighted?) Why aren't the others required study in the SDA HS curriculum then? | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4683 Registered: 8-2004 |
In light of all the "newer" revelations, I believe the SDA church should seek to be understanding of its employees doubt and angst re: EGW. No you shouldn't. You're going to hell if you do that. Hello? The newer "revelations" are the accusations of people actuated by Satan! Ellen White warned us that the Omega apostasy was coming! Don said: She is an authority on how to make use of her writings. She said her writings were the word of God. What part of hell do you not understand? Jesus I know. Ellen White I know. By what authority do you seek to make of none effect the Testimonies of the Spirit of God to the Remnant People in these Last Days? Maggie | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4684 Registered: 8-2004 |
Maggie | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4689 Registered: 8-2004 |
OK, um, all you men out there.... Don't be messin' with the Inspired Writings, got that? Maggie | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4690 Registered: 8-2004 |
Don, you can't just call her a prophet, while stripping her of the AUTHORITY she so adamantly (if incoherently) claimed, and hope nobody notices. I notice that extremely crazy-making maneuver and I think it stinks to high heaven And this isn't going away, though y'all may get away with a few more decades of obfuscating and messing up people's minds before it all catches up with you. Maybe you'll be lucky and be dead by then. All the men from the 1919 Bible Conference are dead and never had to deal with the mess of broken minds and families they bequeathed us. What a dishonorable legacy. Maggie | ||
| Maggie Bockmann (Maggie) member Username: Maggie Post Number: 4691 Registered: 8-2004 |
For God's sake, have some courage and put and end to this outrage, Adventist people!!! WHERE ARE YOUR LEADERS??? Maggie | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 4943 Registered: 5-2006 |
but had covered them up. We live in an era of uncovering the cover up. It was the lack of courage two generations before that had made our family suffer. Dr. Numbers is referring to the 1919 coverup. If it had not been done, his father would not have considered him such a heretic. Our times are times of openness. Maggie you seem to be begging Adventists to denounce EGW. I have been very open here. You are not looking for the courage to be open and honest. You want me to be like you and denounce EGW. What is the outrage you want ended? You want EGW stripped of all her authority. Walter Martin didn't even push for that. "Just admit she was a sinner, like the rest of us," he seems to be saying. Where are your Leaders? We live in a different age. We still have a long way to go, but the 1919 coverup is not being repeated by the following: Alden Thompson, Graeme Bradford, Arthur Patrick, Frederick Hoyt, Jerry Moon, Bull and Lockhart, Jonathan Butler, Ron Graybill, Desmond Ford, Fred Veltman, Fritz Guy, Bert Haloviak, Gary Land, W. H. Johns, George Knight, Denis Fortin, Bruce Manners, etc. My comments here at atomorrow are the least of the least when compared to these leaders. Each of them, as far as I know, remain supportive of EGW without covering up anything. | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 4945 Registered: 5-2006 |
Don, you can't just call her a prophet, while stripping her of the AUTHORITY she so adamantly (if incoherently) claimed, and hope nobody notices. Atomorrow is a public forum. It would be silly to "hope nobody notices". I don't call her a prophet like those in Old Testament times. I believe she experienced the spiritual gift mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. I can strip no one of their rightful authority. I do not allow EGW to have authority in the area of Scriptural interpretation. In the areas of education, health concepts, administrative counsel, etc. I allow her advice to have considerable influence. Even in these areas, I do not consider her inerrant. I don't need her to be inerrant. She still holds considerable influence in my life without that. I agree with Walter Martin that a person who believes in Jesus as she did cannot be defined as a false prophet; a sinner, yes; false prophet, no. As I look around the Adventist world, I see evidence of her authority. The publishing industry started with one of her visions. The health institutions began with hers and her husband's leadership. Educational direction and then redirection took place under her authoritative guidance. The General Conference move to Washington, D.C. happened under her influential authoritative advice. As examples of her influence and authority, Loma Linda and Avondale arose out of practically nothing to be viable institutions largely because of her influence and authority. She does not need to be viewed with inerrant authority to be acknowledged as having authority in Adventism. The most I am willing to allow of her in the Scriptural domain is a place at the table. Her Conflict of the Ages series is commentary. It is by no means intended to limit Bible Study to only what agrees with her. She presents her take on the Scriptures. I like the insights she provides in those books. I don't consider them an inerrant commentary on the Scriptures. To do so, in this age of enlightenment regarding all things EGW, would be insupportable. | ||
| Neal Walls (Nwalls) member Username: Nwalls Post Number: 558 Registered: 5-2008 |
Our times are times of openness. The EGW Estate should be forced to open up the vault to ANY valid historian, friend or foe. Right now seems like every few years something damaging trickles out after someone sneaks a camera in. Do they scan for electronic equipment when you enter the vault now???? Before they open it up they should not be allowed to get an open-burning permit nor purchase commercial shredders! | ||
| Don Sands (Don) member Username: Don Post Number: 4946 Registered: 5-2006 |
Before they open it up they should not be allowed to get an open-burning permit nor purchase commercial shredders! Secrecy gives birth to conspiracy theories. I do not accept something just because someone's website says it is so. Those who want to reveal "secret" documents, like this book which survived the "destruction of the 500", take pictures. Bring in sworn statements of those who saw the document and can attest to what it said. I am not saying that secret, unreleased documents don't exist. I suspect that they do. But, because of the nature of EGW's role in Adventism, make sure you can document what you allege. I am against a protectionist attitude at the White Estate. "Let's not release this, people may take it the wrong way." I am not convinced the current White Estate officials think this way, but they seemed to have in the past. As the church struggles to live a life of openness, it is essential that all claims be verified. |
